dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida

RMM said in part: For that matter, no few millionaires made their piles by rooking the governments of democracies by overcharging on defense contracts or substituting inferior materials on construction projects. "
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One of my favorite presidents, who I voted for tho I am often accused of being a Democrat rather than an Independent, General Ike said that we should be wary of the Military Industrial Complex. War is a profitable business, especially if a president like Clinton has accumulated wealth that is there for the taking. O'Bama, our Irish president asked Romney, If you want a new mid-east war, then say so just don't dance around the issue.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-does-romney-want-start-another-war-middle-014855301--election.html

I thought Laural & Hardy were quite clear how money circulates and that one does not need to print more when the same monies pass thur multi-hands multi-times.

Money is an illusion based on faith, I am concerned that the far right (who are too right and thus wrong) will burn down our home (USA) just to be obstinate and dig in their heels on issues like destroying O'Bama's reputation by not passing work programs for wounded vets, yes I know that there are real reasons for a tarnished reputation) We still teeter on the brink of a world disaster triggered by Baby Bush's board of director who have made millions.

If I were to look at the inflation that has happened during my life time it would out strip any thing I could have imagined! As a professional, I made a good salary of 2-2.50 per hour... but that was good money in 1959... some one told me that some day we would pay a $1 per loaf of bread!! No! can you imagine??? So, what is money, what is the discussion! We, the victims of the 1% can do little to save ourselves nor the nation...OUCH

bvm Loc: Glendale, Arizona

Take a look

unskewedpolls.com

bvm Loc: Glendale, Arizona

imagesintime Loc: small town, mid-America

That makes as much sense as some guy in 1800 saying "There are about 1,000,000 (1 million) free, white, working age males in the US. Let's suppose that they all decided to be hard-working, lift-yourself-by-the-bootstraps Ayn Randian Republicans, and each struggled to earn $5,000 per year.

That would result in a gross income of $5,000,000,000 which comes out to $5 billion dollars per year.

Small problem: Our gross national product is a mere $500 million per year.

So... where's the money coming from? How can all those hardworking, well-deserved people earn their 5,000 dollars?

Inquiring minds want to know.

PrairieSeasons Loc: Red River of the North

How about they get off their asses and get a job for $10/hour instead of staying on the dole?

Inquiring minds want to know.

RMM Loc: Suburban New York

There are a few differences between now and then. Let's see, the frontier is pretty much gone. The population density is a lot higher. And I did take care to specify a $200 trillion figure in current dollars, not in inflated dollars in a post-1800 period. Median income of $5,000 in the US occurred in around 1960.

bvm Loc: Glendale, Arizona

"And who's going to become a teacher, a policeman, a fireman, a waiter, a trash collector, an agricultural worker, a truck driver, a retail sales clerk, an electrician, a plumber, or any of a vast number of other occupations if they can't earn their million dollars a year that way, no matter how hard they work?"

Well if the heads of SEIU wouldn't embezzle the union funds, the workers would get an even brake.

Drigby1 Loc: American Fork, UT

RMM I believe is trying to say we are in a deep hole and there is no way to dig ourselves out without a big change which really can't come without more money. But where do we get it, from the 1%, from the 47%, from the middle class. It just isn't there, so we must cut back spending. If we send the whole federal government on unpaid vacation for a year (including the vast bureaucracy- sorry federal workers) then we might be able to make it.

liebgard

Which specific bill are you talking about "work programs for wounded vets"?
In Dec., a bipartisan program in congress made a lot of headway:

Even before the VOW Act was enacted DOL and VA had already initiated planning to get a head start on implementation of this critical legislation. During the next
seven months DOL and VA will jointly manage and accomplish the following milestones. One, establish a memorandum of agreement and project charter that
will delineate agency specific processes and responsibilities from initial intake through the completion of the program. Two, seek consultation on process design with veterans employment and training experts in state and local
workforce agencies and other appropriate stakeholder organizations representing veterans’ interests. Three, design, test, and implement customized application
processing systems to manage DOL and VA’s joint responsibility under the program. Four, develop, test, and implement enrollment and participation tracking systems to enable the agency to report program results. And five,
develop and execute outreach and technical assistance strategies to both stakeholders and program delivery staff.
As we complete the project charter and the memorandum of agreement we have identified two major operational implementation challenges which will need to be addressed over the next few weeks. First, we must find a way to connect and facilitate a successful interaction between the public workforce system and the VA’s federally centralized G.I. Bill system. Second, we need to develop a mechanism to enable DOL and VA to appropriately access each other’s
administrative and performance data systems. Now VA and DOL are working together to address these issues to ensure the program is successful while protecting privacy and data sharing agreements.
We are also working together to implement Section 233 of the VOW Act which provides additional benefits to disabled veterans that have exhausted their unemployment insurance benefits. The VA is primarily responsible for the
administration of this provision. However, DOL will have a key role in developing the eligibility determination process. Currently there is no single unified system that can be used to determine whether a person has exhausted his or her rights to regular compensation under state law. As a result, we expect the state UI agencies will be involved in making the determination. DOL is exploring possible operational methods to successfully execute this provision.
In addition to Sections 211 and 233 the VOW Act contains several provisions that DOL is working to implement in collaboration with other federal agencies as needed.
In conclusion, both DOL and VA are committed to the full and speedy implementation of the VOW to Hire Heroes Act of 2011.

People are much too prone to judge a matter based on the propaganda talking points, rather than researching the original documentation. (You hear the Dems say, for example, " the Repubs are obstructionists because they won't pass a bill that would help Vets." There may be a bill that has not passed, which on the surface has good intentions, but when looking at the details, the implementation, it is discovered to be full of unacceptable parameters and should not be passed as it stands. That is not obstructionism; that is conscientious governance. Then, when amendments are attempted to address the flaws, the other party will not bring it up for a vote. So, who's the obstructionist then?

RMM Loc: Suburban New York

RMM is saying we are in any number of deep holes. Is there waste in government? Yes. Is there waste in the private sector? If there isn't, the private sector has sure changed for the better since I was working in corporate. Are there people gaming the system? Yes. Some of them are poor and gaming the system. Some of the are wealthy. They just have better lawyers (who in the financial community besides Bernie Madoff and one other guy whose name I don't remember went to jail?).

It's a lot more complicated than that. Jet planes and container cargo ships have shrunk the world, and the Internet is doing to the service sector what the jet planes and cargo ships did to the industrial sector. Are those guys with the thick accents in Mumbai more knowledgeable than the Americans who used to provide tech support? I don't think so, but they work for ten cents on the dollar, unions or not. A lot of those jobs aren't coming back, and you could reduce taxes to zero and shoot every union leader, and those jobs still wouldn't be coming back.

There's a certain irony in that we helped create the situation. Companies like Microsoft (I'm using them as an example, not picking on them) brought lots of consultants into the US on H1B visas, pretending that they couldn't find qualified people here in the US. The H1Bs learned from us, did their work, went home and opened competitive businesses and stole our jobs.

We don't enjoy a largely closed economy. Some of our competitors - China comes to mind - aren't above gaming the system, e.g., via currency manipulation. Net result: An outflow of jobs.

In the global economy, corporations aren't national, they're not really US companies. They're opportunists. And they're 800-pound gorillas, often with bigger gross revenues than the GNPs of many countries. is that a criticism? Sort of, but them's the facts, and if they play by the rule of maximizing profit, they're doing what they're supposed to do.

Take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMF-Z74C1QE&feature=colike

I agree with his projections about where technology is headed. He concludes that this is a good thing, and this is where I disagree with him. Society and politics can't keep up with the changes in technology. People aren't just going to shift into more thinking and creative positions. They're going to melt down. Alvin Toffler got it right in Future Shock back in 1970. He just underestimated the effect.

kaushikuec Loc: Indore, India

Problems of globalization ? Though we have veered much from the original discussion RMM started, the thread is touching upon many economic issues we are facing today.
I would try to tell a small story.

"Somewhere in the US, a middle class American worker pays his insurance premium ; A software guy managing the insurance account gets paid his salary in Bangalore, India. He takes his kids to McDonalds Bangalore and somewhere in US somebody gets a share from his spends. He then goes shopping and buys the latest iPhone ; some workers in China gets their wage, and an Apple engineer in US gets paid his salary too. With his wage, the Chinese guy buys a nappy for his kid with a Disney logo on it, some S&P stock gets increased, and a retiree in US becomes happier checking his 401K balance. Come next month the American retiree and the American engineer at Apple pays their insurance premium again, and the cycle starts all over."

Now ! Is this totally fair ? Is this totally unfair ? Honestly I don't know. But I know that this is the present system. It evolved from an older system and will change to something newer again. We will have to struggle again to get ourselves adjusted to the new one. But change is inevitable. And, please, don't use the word "Stealing", it is a bad word. If you say "the guy in Bangalore stole my job", the local fast-food corner owner in Bangalore has every right to scream "McDonalds from USA stole my livelihood".

It was USA in late 1900 who through WTO and World Bank coerced all Asian countries to open their economies to globalization. Ostensibly to sell their McBurgers, Cokes, Pepsis and whatnot. All Asian countries resisted at first but had to give in sooner or later. Now the economy has come to a full circle and can we really blame somebody or change the system overnight ?

RMM is very right in his statements that MNCs belong to no nation and would do everything to generate profit, because that's what their legally stated goal is. In every country everywhere we are seeing the tussle between protectionism and globalization. USA wants to sell more subsidized Corn, more iPhones, CocaCola, and F16s to every country in the world, but wants to protect its tech and manufacturing jobs. Europe and UK wants to sell their hallowed education to Asians but don't want them to take high paying jobs in EU and UK. Indians want to sell their software and services but don't want Walmart to open stores in their cities. So, if you see the situation with a globalized look, everybody is even.

Oh! Lets finish the story I started.
"Now suddenly Presidents of every country resort to total closure of their economies to win the next election. The USA people suddenly see their premium going up 5 times, because it was the Bangalore guy who was doing the job 10 cents on a Dollar, but now an American wants the full Dollar. Every Walmart store in USA is out of stock and the remaining stuff now costs 6 times, because Chinese won't ship anything and US workers can't work with Chinese' wages. Corn prices plummet to next to nothing and US farmers face huge loss. The US retiree goes to DC to take part in protest because his 401k and Social Security check cannot support the 600% inflation. On the other part of the world. The Indian guy is fired and can't buy his McBurgers and iPads. The Chinese guy is fired too, and can't buy Disney Cartoon printed nappy for his kid anymore. Next week; the world economy collapses : to an even deeper abyss than 2008."

I hope you enjoyed the discussion. Critics welcome and please point out factual mistakes, if any.

Hal81 Loc: Bucks County, Pa.

Nothing is settled here. All a lot of smoke shifting. I still say vote em all out. And keep voteing them all out till they start working for us and not the bribe paying lobbist. They love us fighting with each other to keep us from seeing how they are robbing us blind of our once great country.

dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida

[quote=Hal81]SAID IN PART:
1, Nothing is settled here. All a lot of smoke shifting. ...
2. start working for us and not the bribe paying lobbyist.
3. They fighting with each other to keep us from seeing "
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1. Well true we above have written a lot (except me, was a sub teacher yesterday exhausting job 6th graders! Back to HS only for me) but, this is one of the rare forum threads that I feel has had well thinking clear stating writers. And thank you "liebgard" .... excellent reply... very informative...and yes I am one who just hears the quick propaganda on the news.

2. While it has always been so, the supreme court has made it safe and secrete. We should at least know who has purchased our legislators.

3. Indeed an old magicians trick, diversion.
Too early to be too intellectual,,, my coffee is getting cold... 5:30AM est.

Drigby1 Loc: American Fork, UT

dpullum. What a saint. I taught elementary school for 30 years and know what a teacher, and worse what a sub goes through. You came out standing up. Oh and interesting points.

dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida

No, ain't a saint... at this age, twice a week is OK, keeps me sharp, three tires me out... teaching especially the young 6,7, is too challenging... 11-12 appreciate the life lessons on how to behave in the work place. After retiring from engineering/environmental/management.... I taught 9th math/science/ESE full time for 3 years.

6-7-8-9- I have a 7 minute start lesson I give....3x5 card making three 3x2.7" little flash cards for vocab and formulas. Do not work hard... work smart.... watch the movie... you have 1 hr in that 2 hr movie devoted to commercials... mute. etc... And if they step out of line,,, I fire them... saying that is what would happen in the work place... they respond well.. AND the little money it pays goes into photo programs,, a new lens etc...

But, thank you for the positive comments...
PS: not a sub...ugh... TALF , temporary assigned learning facilitator... like that?

PPS: The foldables the teachers have them make as study aids are never used outside of class... as per survey of the kids..