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Losing faith in mirrorless cameras
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Feb 10, 2020 02:41:49   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
skyspy wrote:
In the attached image you can see what appears to be lint in the image in the upper left portion in the sky. I've been mirrorless cameras for over a year now and have noticed that the sensor is very hard to keep clean. I preformed a test using 2 mirrorless cameras and 2 cameras with mirrors. The camera specs were very similar, full frame with the same native resolutions. Each camera used a 300mm telephoto lens. Each camera was set up with aperture priority and an ISO of 400. The dust became noticeable at f-stops f16 and smaller on the mirrorless camera (f-16 thru f-32). The smaller the stop the more noticeable. The mirrored camera were free of any noticeable aberrations. Each lens was cleaned prior to the testing. The mirrorless camera sensors were cleaned according to the manufacturer instructions and then manually cleaned. All the cleaning did was move the aberrations around or even create new ones. Does the mirror protect the sensor in cameras with mirrors? Does the sensor in mirrorless cameras attract dust because of an electrical charge? Has anybody else noticed this issue on their mirrorless cameras? It is usually most noticeable in clear blue sky like the attachment.
In the attached image you can see what appears to ... (show quote)


There is no perfect system. But for 11 years total, with a Olympus E-M5 and a E-M1mkII, they have not needed a cleaning. Maybe some luck, but more likely technology. And Olympus even increased the cleaning power 10% in the E-M1X for the pros just to keep it as clean as possible. That doesn't mean that I will not have to have it done sometime in the future. But it is still in the future after even 11 years. I think the Panasonic has a similar system. I think the other formats just haven't caught up to the point that Olympus and Panasonic have gotten. Maybe the next generation of the other formats will bring stronger ultrasonic cleaners to the sensors. Don't give up on the system already on your camera. Get it cleaned and see if the system does you better in the future.

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Feb 10, 2020 02:47:28   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
wdross wrote:
There is no perfect system. But for 11 years total, with a Olympus E-M5 and a E-M1mkII, they have not needed a cleaning. Maybe some luck, but more likely technology. And Olympus even increased the cleaning power 10% in the E-M1X for the pros just to keep it as clean as possible. That doesn't mean that I will not have to have it done sometime in the future. But it is still in the future after even 11 years. I think the Panasonic has a similar system. I think the other formats just haven't caught up to the point that Olympus and Panasonic have gotten. Maybe the next generation of the other formats will bring stronger ultrasonic cleaners to the sensors. Don't give up on the system already on your camera. Get it cleaned and see if the system does you better in the future.
There is no perfect system. But for 11 years total... (show quote)


I have had similar experiences with Panasonic and Oly M43 bodies.

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Feb 10, 2020 05:34:04   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
Practical explanation: "So perhaps it's more important to change lenses in a quiet dust free environment on a mirrorless camera."
JD750 wrote:
Other people have reported sensors gathering debris on mirrorless cameras.

However that has not been my experience. I have been shooting mirrorless since circa 2008-2009 and my experience is mirrorless sensors need much much less cleaning than my DSLR sensors. There is no mirror flipping around stirring up the air and flinging oil everywhere. However the sensor is more exposed when changing lenses. So perhaps it's more important to change lenses in a quiet dust free environment on a mirrorless camera.
Other people have reported sensors gathering debri... (show quote)

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Feb 10, 2020 06:25:09   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
skyspy wrote:
In the attached image you can see what appears to be lint in the image in the upper left portion in the sky. I've been mirrorless cameras for over a year now and have noticed that the sensor is very hard to keep clean. I preformed a test using 2 mirrorless cameras and 2 cameras with mirrors. The camera specs were very similar, full frame with the same native resolutions. Each camera used a 300mm telephoto lens. Each camera was set up with aperture priority and an ISO of 400. The dust became noticeable at f-stops f16 and smaller on the mirrorless camera (f-16 thru f-32). The smaller the stop the more noticeable. The mirrored camera were free of any noticeable aberrations. Each lens was cleaned prior to the testing. The mirrorless camera sensors were cleaned according to the manufacturer instructions and then manually cleaned. All the cleaning did was move the aberrations around or even create new ones. Does the mirror protect the sensor in cameras with mirrors? Does the sensor in mirrorless cameras attract dust because of an electrical charge? Has anybody else noticed this issue on their mirrorless cameras? It is usually most noticeable in clear blue sky like the attachment.
In the attached image you can see what appears to ... (show quote)


Although Photoshop could make short work of those things I too have found issues with mirrorless camera's. Too many to mention here, but I wish you the best of luck dealing with that issue. I only have mounted one lens on my Sony so I have not experienced your issue yet, but.

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Feb 10, 2020 06:27:58   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
I don’t get why you take the lens off after a shoot. I always keep my walk around lens on so it’s always ready.

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Feb 10, 2020 06:36:38   #
NikonRocks Loc: Sydney
 
Be mindful of the environment where you shooting and the type of lens being used in that environment. For example if you have zoom lenses where the barrel extends in/out as you zoom in/out then you get outside air sucked into/out of the camera/zoom lens combo along with any impurities in the surrounding atmosphere. In low humidity electrostatics come into play exacerbating the likelihood of particles landing on the camera's sensor. This goes for any camera - Mirrorless or DSLR. My two bit for what it is worth.

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Feb 10, 2020 06:38:28   #
w00dy4012 Loc: Thalia, East Virginia
 
skyspy wrote:
In the attached image you can see what appears to be lint in the image in the upper left portion in the sky. I've been mirrorless cameras for over a year now and have noticed that the sensor is very hard to keep clean. I preformed a test using 2 mirrorless cameras and 2 cameras with mirrors. The camera specs were very similar, full frame with the same native resolutions. Each camera used a 300mm telephoto lens. Each camera was set up with aperture priority and an ISO of 400. The dust became noticeable at f-stops f16 and smaller on the mirrorless camera (f-16 thru f-32). The smaller the stop the more noticeable. The mirrored camera were free of any noticeable aberrations. Each lens was cleaned prior to the testing. The mirrorless camera sensors were cleaned according to the manufacturer instructions and then manually cleaned. All the cleaning did was move the aberrations around or even create new ones. Does the mirror protect the sensor in cameras with mirrors? Does the sensor in mirrorless cameras attract dust because of an electrical charge? Has anybody else noticed this issue on their mirrorless cameras? It is usually most noticeable in clear blue sky like the attachment.
In the attached image you can see what appears to ... (show quote)


I haven't noticed a more dust on my mirrorless sensors than on my mirror sensors. All digital cameras gather dust, but a mirrorless is easier to clean.

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Feb 10, 2020 06:50:08   #
cameraf4 Loc: Delaware
 
I'm not sure how many here often shoot at f/16 - f/32 but those who do so with mirrorless bodies may want to thank skyspy for the heads-up. Perhaps this problem will never come your way (and we hope it doesn't) but it is something to look out for.

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Feb 10, 2020 06:53:21   #
i080123
 
Same here and actually see nothing (sorry). Very nice landscape picture though

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Feb 10, 2020 06:57:08   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
NikonRocks wrote:
Be mindful of the environment where you shooting and the type of lens being used in that environment. For example if you have zoom lenses where the barrel extends in/out as you zoom in/out then you get outside air sucked into/out of the camera/zoom lens combo along with any impurities in the surrounding atmosphere. In low humidity electrostatics come into play exacerbating the likelihood of particles landing on the camera's sensor. This goes for any camera - Mirrorless or DSLR. My two bit for what it is worth.
Be mindful of the environment where you shooting a... (show quote)


Makes me feel lucky that I have a 45-175 for my Panasonic that has an internal zoom and focus.

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Feb 10, 2020 07:30:55   #
Don, the 2nd son Loc: Crowded Florida
 
Gene51 wrote:
Keep your rear lens cap clean. It makes a big difference.



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Feb 10, 2020 08:01:37   #
rond-photography Loc: Connecticut
 
skyspy wrote:
In the attached image you can see what appears to be lint in the image in the upper left portion in the sky. I've been mirrorless cameras for over a year now and have noticed that the sensor is very hard to keep clean. I preformed a test using 2 mirrorless cameras and 2 cameras with mirrors. The camera specs were very similar, full frame with the same native resolutions. Each camera used a 300mm telephoto lens. Each camera was set up with aperture priority and an ISO of 400. The dust became noticeable at f-stops f16 and smaller on the mirrorless camera (f-16 thru f-32). The smaller the stop the more noticeable. The mirrored camera were free of any noticeable aberrations. Each lens was cleaned prior to the testing. The mirrorless camera sensors were cleaned according to the manufacturer instructions and then manually cleaned. All the cleaning did was move the aberrations around or even create new ones. Does the mirror protect the sensor in cameras with mirrors? Does the sensor in mirrorless cameras attract dust because of an electrical charge? Has anybody else noticed this issue on their mirrorless cameras? It is usually most noticeable in clear blue sky like the attachment.
In the attached image you can see what appears to ... (show quote)


Does your camera have a "clean cycle"? My Olys do (even the DSLR prior to mirrorless) and I can't remember finding lint in a picture in years. The sensor vibrates ultrasonically when you turn the camera on and it shakes dust off. The dust is trapped on a built in sticky strip, so it doesn't go back to the sensor. If the contaminant is some sort of oil or other non-dust residue, the clean cycle probably has no effect.

The people that make Lens Pen sell a kit for cleaning your sensor. Can't tell you good or bad on that, though. I like my LP, but have never opened the box for the sensor cleaner - better to leave it alone if it is not causing problems.

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Feb 10, 2020 08:45:06   #
dbgrizzzz
 
I had the same experience. I bought a small, inexpensive mirrorless, took it with me on a vacation, and when I got back home, I saw a spot in all of the images. Dust. And I only switched lens a few times. I concluded that the probability of sensor dust is much higher than on my DSLR (this never happened on that camera), so I always use my DSLR now, just to be on the safe side. With mirrorless cameras, you need to be very diligent and check for dust, frequently, if you change lenses very often. Lesson learned.

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Feb 10, 2020 09:08:46   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
skyspy wrote:
In the attached image you can see what appears to be lint in the image in the upper left portion in the sky. I've been mirrorless cameras for over a year now and have noticed that the sensor is very hard to keep clean. I preformed a test using 2 mirrorless cameras and 2 cameras with mirrors. The camera specs were very similar, full frame with the same native resolutions. Each camera used a 300mm telephoto lens. Each camera was set up with aperture priority and an ISO of 400. The dust became noticeable at f-stops f16 and smaller on the mirrorless camera (f-16 thru f-32). The smaller the stop the more noticeable. The mirrored camera were free of any noticeable aberrations. Each lens was cleaned prior to the testing. The mirrorless camera sensors were cleaned according to the manufacturer instructions and then manually cleaned. All the cleaning did was move the aberrations around or even create new ones. Does the mirror protect the sensor in cameras with mirrors? Does the sensor in mirrorless cameras attract dust because of an electrical charge? Has anybody else noticed this issue on their mirrorless cameras? It is usually most noticeable in clear blue sky like the attachment.
In the attached image you can see what appears to ... (show quote)


First, there are very, very few instances (other than macro photography of 3D objects) when you need f/16. I learned this over 50 years of experience: The best aperture on a lens is usually far wider than f/16 — on a 300mm f/4, it is probably around f/5.6 to f/8. On a 300mm f/2.8, it is likely f/4.5 to f/6.3. The "best aperture" *for lens performance* is the point of maximum sharpness and contrast, freedom from coma and astigmatism, freedom from chromatic aberrations, and freedom from diffraction, which limits sharpness.

If you're concerned about depth of field, get a DOF calculator for your smartphone and learn how to read it. It will save hours of worry.

If you don't have a perfectly clean sensor after performing a wet cleaning process, you're not doing it properly — It's that simple. It took me a while to get it right. Here are a couple of resources that may help improve your technique:

http://www.cleaningdigitalcameras.com
http://www.photosol.com

Read their discussions of the relative merits of cleaning devices, and watch their videos to learn the finer points of technique.

Mirrors don't protect sensors in dSLRs. SHUTTERS can. But they cannot protect against deteriorating foam dampener dust (from the strip around the prism that the mirror slams into). They cannot protect against metal shavings and grease from lenses or shutter mechanisms. They cannot protect against foreign material in the atmosphere during lens changes, or dirt on the rear lens element that gets dislodged by vibration.

SOME camera sensors do attract dust with a mild static charge, but not all do that. If it were a huge problem, you would see it about equally with dSLRs and MILCs.

In five years of mirrorless experience (with two Lumix GH4 bodies), I have had ONE spot on my sensor that the cameras' built-in cleaning vibrators could not remove. That one was probably a droplet from a cough during a lens change. It took two Sensor Swabs and Eclipse fluid to remove that. It was stuck on hard.

Bashing or giving up on mirrorless cameras because of dust on sensors is irrational. Using a dSLR for its merits is not. There are roles for each camera design. I NEED mirrorless gear for its hybrid (stills and video) capability. dSLRs can record video, but quite awkwardly. The Lumix cameras have it down to a science.

If I were a sports or wildlife action photographer, I'd probably order a Canon 1DX Mark III and some EF lenses, or a Nikon D6 when it's ready, and some of the finest Nikkors. For everything else, there's mirrorless. It's where most of the development money is going now.

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Feb 10, 2020 09:14:28   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
That is not my experience. I have been using Olympus mirrorless cameras for several years and I do not remember once that I had to stop to clean the sensor in any of them.
With my Nikon bodies I see no end to keep the sensors clean.

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