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A Possible Return of Conscription
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Nov 23, 2019 15:17:21   #
neillaubenthal
 
Agree…although the military doesn't need everybody to be drafted…a 2 year commitment doesn't allow for much beyond training and warfare is much more complicated and technical than it used to be. That's why most military enlistments today are longer than 2 years.

I would be fine with a requirement for 2 years of public service…but I'm afraid that the progressives would demand that building safe places on college campuses count and then would build a huge government department that would be way overstaffed to manage the plan.

Perhaps a better idea is everybody is eligible for a draft and the military gets to pick and choose the best qualified.

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Nov 23, 2019 16:51:57   #
hookedupin2005 Loc: Northwestern New Mexico
 
robertjerl wrote:
My personal belief ever since high school (I was Regular Army for one enlistment with 2 years in Nam) the Swiss or Israeli model.
Everyone except the disabled etc serves in some capacity and then goes into reserve status. It could be a third category in addition to the current Reserves and National Guard.
If everyone has some skin in the game and experience then maybe more will take part in real solutions that will work in the real world.

I would like to see Heinlein's idea from the book "Starship Troopers" become reality. Not the Hollywood movie version - the book. Everyone is a citizen with rights and protections but only those who serve in one of the approved categories vote, run for office, get certain jobs (and some of those jobs count as "service" in the first place for those those like conscientious objectors) etc. And the ideas behind that would be taught in high school as a mandatory class by service veterans only and the local school officials have no power over them.

Then those who violate the trust of service or office after service get prosecuted and punished, no exceptions.

Of course if implemented all citizens over a certain age would be grandfathered in for voting etc and the new system would gradually take over.

In the book the main character is military and an officer in a war with an alien race. His father is a millionaire/billionaire who never served and didn't care about voting and public office as long as his businesses thrived. At the end of the book the father shows up in his unit as a senior NCO. He has come to see that making money wasn't enough. He needed to serve and be a full voting citizen.
My personal belief ever since high school (I was R... (show quote)


There would be a problem, as there always has been during the draft.... Many people would "buy" their exemption. The one that comes to mind(the President), is not the only one who has done that....Many have been diagnosed with bone spurs, or flat feet, or whatever, by their private doctor. There is an easy solution, though: Every draft-eligible person that shows paperwork from their private doctor, would be sent to a VA hospital for a complete physical. Their draft status would then be determined by a panel of doctors.

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Nov 23, 2019 16:57:59   #
gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast
 
[quote=neillaubenthal]Agree…although the military doesn't need everybody to be drafted…a 2 year commitment doesn't allow for much beyond training and warfare is much more complicated and technical than it used to be. That's why most military enlistments today are longer than 2 years.

"…but I'm afraid that the progressives would demand that building safe places on college campuses count and then would build a huge government department that would be way overstaffed to manage the plan."

Why are you conservatives so damn afraid of what progressives may or may not do? Without progressive thinking there would be no Social Security or Medicare or food safety rules or any number of things that benefit society as a whole. I agree that there’s a lot of bloat in government but that’s our own fault for not holding politicians accountable for running an efficient governmental system and for passing laws with loopholes and waste built in.

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Nov 23, 2019 17:21:21   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
robertjerl wrote:
My personal belief ever since high school (I was Regular Army for one enlistment with 2 years in Nam) the Swiss or Israeli model.
Everyone except the disabled etc serves in some capacity and then goes into reserve status. It could be a third category in addition to the current Reserves and National Guard.
If everyone has some skin in the game and experience then maybe more will take part in real solutions that will work in the real world.

I would like to see Heinlein's idea from the book "Starship Troopers" become reality. Not the Hollywood movie version - the book. Everyone is a citizen with rights and protections but only those who serve in one of the approved categories vote, run for office, get certain jobs (and some of those jobs count as "service" in the first place for those those like conscientious objectors) etc. And the ideas behind that would be taught in high school as a mandatory class by service veterans only and the local school officials have no power over them.

Then those who violate the trust of service or office after service get prosecuted and punished, no exceptions.

Of course if implemented all citizens over a certain age would be grandfathered in for voting etc and the new system would gradually take over.

In the book the main character is military and an officer in a war with an alien race. His father is a millionaire/billionaire who never served and didn't care about voting and public office as long as his businesses thrived. At the end of the book the father shows up in his unit as a senior NCO. He has come to see that making money wasn't enough. He needed to serve and be a full voting citizen.
My personal belief ever since high school (I was R... (show quote)


I fully believe citizenship with voting rights should only be given to those who serve in the military.
With today's technology disability is not an issue, you can fly a drone or do data entry or answer a phone.

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Nov 23, 2019 18:12:39   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
JDG3 wrote:
I read a lot of military history, foreign policy papers and military theory and this is a theme that shows up a lot since the draft was stopped after Vietnam. Whether you think it is right or wrong, many believe that conscription done correctly and fairly would go a long way in limiting our involvement in so many wars. Many people in high positions believe that this is one of the driving reasons that the Afghan war has gone on for nearly 20 years. While we have many men and women serving in harm's way all over the world, they probably are not a broad representation of the US population as a whole. And unlike Vietnam during the draft when everyone knew someone or had a relative in the military, that is not the case today. This also explains why there are few, if any, protests of the current wars. As someone else said; many Americans do not have any skin in the game and therefore are largely disconnected from the war. Conscripted service done properly could do a lot to change the way the US views and conducts wars.

The volunteer military of today is seen as a professional career or job. As such, it can and is used as foreign policy dictates with little backlash. It is easier and quicker to send in the military and force an agreement than to negotiate an agreement. Technology amplifies this attitude with the introduction of ever capable drones, robots and smart weapons that allow the military to stand off and still inflict damage. Most, if not all of the US drone operators flying over the conflict area today are located here at various US bases.

The role of the defense industry and contractors should also not be overlooked. A war that consumes large volumes goods, services, equipment and munitions also brings jobs, increased tax revenues. The big defense contractors have done an excellent job in making sure these jobs and suppliers are placed around the country to gain the support of an many politicians as possible to maintain support in Washington. Any politician that is against military interventions runs the risk of endangering jobs and constituents income and thus losing votes.

Reading this one may interpret me as anti-war or anti-military, but I am neither. I entered the military in the early 1970's and retired with 26 years of service. I served during the last years of the draft and since during the volunteer era. The US has the best,most capable and deadly military in the world. We should use it when we need to without hesitation and bring as much deadly force to bear as the situation requires. However, we should also have the capability for negotiation and use that properly when needed. There should also be some method of bringing in a broader representation of the US population into the military so the effects of sending these men and women to conflicts affect a broader range of people. This should put more pressure onto politicians to end wars as soon as possible once entering into a conflict.

I am for a strong military and its use when needed. However, something is wrong when there are military members that have spent the MAJORITY of their 20+ year career in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq with no end in sight. It is wrong when we have teenagers approaching 20 years of age who have a war going on their ENTIRE lives.
I read a lot of military history, foreign policy p... (show quote)



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Nov 23, 2019 18:13:58   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
cincykid wrote:
I was drafted just after I finished college in 1966. I wasn't particularly gung ho but my Dad, a combat medic in the 78th Infantry in WWII said "As long as you don't end up in the infantry it will probably be good for you".

My Army mos was 84c20, motion picture photographer, I trained with 15 guys, half Marines at Ft. Monmouth. I was the only guy who went to Germany. All the others went to Nam. I learned about 15 years ago that one of those Marines, William T. Perkins, was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor postumously.

I was lucky but like anyone in Germany, Korea or anywhere in those days or today, things could change very quickly.

My time in the Army was my "time away" at college and has created bonds with guys which still exist after 50 years. Membership in the American Legion has formed additional bonds and love of country.

All that said, I believe after all these years that a draft for some kind of service should be mandatory. Too few appreciate the service, protection and sacrifices of the 1%.

Another benefit would be with more people with 'skin in the game' there would be more dialogue (even protest) re: the wisdom of entering a conflict or continuing in endless wars.

Pressure on our elected officials from more people with families with 'skin in the game' could create a more equitable application of our Country's military foreign policy.
I was drafted just after I finished college in 196... (show quote)



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Nov 23, 2019 18:15:37   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
mas24 wrote:
I have mixed opinions on this. The cause of the Draft, ending under the President Nixon Administration, was because of the Vietnam War. I remember well, the riots, draft card burners, and the rich kids going to Canada to avoid the Draft. I had a now retired Civilian Supervisor, that was one of them. I ran into him earlier this year at a Post Office. President Jimmy Carter gave all of them amnesty. Which was his Right, but angered many who had permanent injuries, and suffered psychological mishaps, from the Vietnam War. I lost three friends from the Vietnam War. I saw their names on the Vietnam Memorial Wall n 2015, when I visited DC. Famous people served in the Military during WW2. Two Kennedy's, Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart, and Heavy Weight Champion Joe Louis, etc. Muhammad Ali refused to go into to the Military, because of religious reasons. Elvis Presley was the most famous Draftee during the late 1950s. No, none of them were on the Front Lines of combat. But, at least they served. I met a Supervisor of Construction not long ago. He said he can't fill job positions, needed badly, because qualified applicants, either refuse to take a drug test, or fail the drug test. The Military does not need these applicants either. I'm all for the Military, but bringing back the Draft could be problematic. Many High Schools won't even let Recruiters go on campus to talk to upcoming graduating Seniors. I have two relatives, who served in Vietnam. Both retired military. The stories they told me were amazing. President Nixon, a Californian, always looked at one of his legacy achievements, to ending the Draft. He lived not far from me, in San Clemente, CA. He was a big supporter of the US Marines, and occasionally invited a select few for a picnic at his home. Unfortunately, his resignation is one of his legacies too. Bad legacy.
I have mixed opinions on this. The cause of the D... (show quote)



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Nov 23, 2019 18:19:46   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
pendennis wrote:
One of the problems our country faces, is the lack of a direct threat. During the Great War and WWII, the threat was obvious and overt; since WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, and the "Middle East", not so much. Intervention in those areas came mainly as a result of adventuresome Presidents interested in exporting democracy, nation-building, and perceiving threats from the USSR, China, Iraq, and Iran.

We ended up at war in Korea at a time where the threat wasn't existential, and war wasn't declared by Congress. Ditto every war since.

Today, few see the need for any type of conscriptive service. The people who served during WWII were largely conscripts, in favor of getting the job done, and getting back to civilian life. Viet Nam was another conscript war, but with an unfavorable political settlement. The taste of that debacle is still bitter to many.
One of the problems our country faces, is the lack... (show quote)


Actually aprx 2/3 of all who went to Nam were Regular Army enlistees, not drafted. I was RA and was there 2 years.
Now it may be that the draftees doing other jobs allowed the RAs to go to Nam and of course that 1/3 draftees did fill out the units that went.

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Nov 23, 2019 18:27:03   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
bwana wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, it is time for humans to come to their senses and realize the TOTAL waste of resources and $$$'s spent on various military undertakings. Funds would be much better spent on education, healthcare, infrastructure, etc.

However, humans have been killing each other since time immemorial so I guess we're stuck in this rut until we do each other in!?


Your statement is of an ideal, dream, perfect world. Ah, if only it was, but...
In the real world giving up the military would just let the bad guys run wild and have their way.
Unfortunately everyone in the world is not a nice person who agrees with you about peace and love. Some are just plain AH's who see peaceful reasonable people as just suckers and future victims.

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Nov 23, 2019 18:36:57   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
hookedupin2005 wrote:
There would be a problem, as there always has been during the draft.... Many people would "buy" their exemption. The one that comes to mind(the President), is not the only one who has done that....Many have been diagnosed with bone spurs, or flat feet, or whatever, by their private doctor. There is an easy solution, though: Every draft-eligible person that shows paperwork from their private doctor, would be sent to a VA hospital for a complete physical. Their draft status would then be determined by a panel of doctors.
There would be a problem, as there always has been... (show quote)


In Universal Service, it is just that, Universal - only a few verified exemptions allowed and they serve in some other way if at all physically or mentally able. I read a brief article about someone in Switzerland who was wheelchair bound and though one of the exempt people he insisted on doing office work so he could serve like others did.
In Heinlein's idea ONLY those who served - and service was judged by other who served - got to hold office, vote and hold many different jobs - in other words they ran the government and society. The non-service types got to do everything else but except in business they never got power to make any of the major decisions.
If you didn't serve/dodged service then you never even got a chance at power or decision making.

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Nov 23, 2019 18:49:28   #
Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb
 
For what we have in this country it was( and is) worth the time in service. I saw Libya and then to Germany during the occupation as well as most of Europe during that time. I have been back many times since and Europe is doing fine but not like what we have in the USA. We are the one's that got out, some gave more than a few years of our our lives not or lives. We say thanks to them and the them and I get pissed at the attitude toward America this generation seems to have. They don't know.

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Nov 23, 2019 18:58:05   #
gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast
 
Architect1776 wrote:
I fully believe citizenship with voting rights should only be given to those who serve in the military.
With today's technology disability is not an issue, you can fly a drone or do data entry or answer a phone.


Back in the day it was only landowners who could vote. We’ve certainly come a long way in becoming a more inclusive society as opposed to an exclusive one. One question for you. If you’re killed while in the military, are you granted citizenship posthumously or what?

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Nov 23, 2019 20:38:13   #
davejann Loc: Portland Oregon
 
,HOWEVER I worry about our Foreign Policy, I hate it when we go into Countries and Destroy them without building them back up like we helped build up Europe, Germany, Japan, and South Korea and I hate when we support Brutal Dictators and Regimes so I wonder if the Draft would just encourage even worse Foreign Policy or not, AS Much as I hate to be the World's Policeman, I also wonder if that role has kept us out of WWIII,,,ONE wonders in my War Viet Nam if we could have defeated Communism not by War but by having a much more Viable and Dynamic Economic System in Capitalism...or if the Domino Theory was correct...and one has to wonder in looking at Arms Sales Worldwide not only our Country but also a half a dozen other Countries if that is not a major driving force for conflict worldwide...[/quote]

One way to deal with those exemptions and deferments is to draft everyone and let the military docs decide who can get out. Since most of them will be draftees as well, they would be less likely to be swayed by anything except a real problem.

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Nov 23, 2019 21:36:55   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
When I had been in the Army 2 years and 6 months of a 3 year enlistment I went to the clinic in Nam to get an ear infection checked out. To my surprise it was an Air Force doctor - he said the Air Force clinic at the airfield had too many doctors and so did the large army evac hospital so they assigned him to our little clinic which needed more doctors because our compound now had nearly 3000 troops and only 1 Army doctor. Well he was one of those docs who actually reads you health records to know you. He laid my record folder on the desk and said between your mild asthmatic breathing when your allergies kit in, your eye sight and those severe allergies (basically every plant in the world to some degree) you should have never been allowed to enlist and go on active duty. I can have you an honorable medical discharge with benefits in 6 weeks time (I only had about 100 days left before I rotated from home my 2 year tour-yes, I volunteered to extend my time in Nam-twice.) I told him No thanks, I'll finish my enlistment. I should have taken him up on it. He said between my various conditions and hearing loss due to the multiple fungus infections I had in Nam I would have gotten 100%. As is when I applied 10 yeas ago because of several problems connected to Agent Orange they only gave me 40%.
Oh, well, live and learn.

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Nov 23, 2019 21:37:32   #
oregon don
 
PH CIB wrote:
Great Post and I agree but I have mixed feelings on this, as the original Draft had many problems, with mostly the Rich and Powerful getting out of the Draft with deferments, however I think it would be great for everyone to serve our Country in some Capacity in the Military or doing Public Service Work, infrastructure is one thing that comes to mind like the old Great CCC and giving them a GI Bill for Vocational School or College
,,,HOWEVER I worry about our Foreign Policy, I hate it when we go into Countries and Destroy them without building them back up like we helped build up Europe, Germany, Japan, and South Korea and I hate when we support Brutal Dictators and Regimes so I wonder if the Draft would just encourage even worse Foreign Policy or not, AS Much as I hate to be the World's Policeman, I also wonder if that role has kept us out of WWIII,,,ONE wonders in my War Viet Nam if we could have defeated Communism not by War but by having a much more Viable and Dynamic Economic System in Capitalism...or if the Domino Theory was correct...and one has to wonder in looking at Arms Sales Worldwide not only our Country but also a half a dozen other Countries if that is not a major driving force for conflict worldwide...
Great Post and I agree but I have mixed feelings o... (show quote)


I have to agree. I was a draftee and sent to South Korea in 1960 to support a dictator, We had Koreans getting into our ammo dump and steal our used brass. We would catch one and turn him over to the Korean cops and he would be back in our ammo dump the next night!

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