California Forest Fires
Oct 31, 2019 13:10:43 #
---[quote=charlieTDC]This is nonsense, as is half of your assertions about environmental laws. you can't bribe an inspector in CA to let you avoid seismic regulations and build a house of quarried rock and only a true moron would want to.
I did not say bribe an inspector, I said make a campaign contribution - to a politician who would in turn put pressure on the inspectors.
As with your other answers I have seen you cherry pick, talk about "almost" the same thing etc. As to the "morons" wanting to build of stone - they are out there and I guess you recognized the signs from personal experience in the field.
---PG&E don't avoid cutting brush because of environmental laws. They've been court ordered to cut brush, they just didn't/ weren't able to do it enough. They have programmatic permits although they are pretty famous for not bothering to abide by them nothing ever happens to them when they don't.
The courts can order all the cutting they want (and most of that was after the problem got so bad) but the permits still need to be issued. And PG&E went bankrupt already back in Jan. They didn't closely check on the cutting done by contractors and just passed reports along that cutting had been done when it either hadn't or hadn't been done properly. As to PG&E not following the rules that is a long standing problem with a lot of companies in CA - and many of the politicians and appointed officials are right in the middle and part of the problem.
---And I would like to see the building code for the mythical places you assert force people to build wooden homes in CA in the forest and prevent you from using fire proof materials because my professional experience the exact opposite is the reality- you are required to make structures fire proof.
I worded that part poorly - my only excuse is feeling really crappy due to severe allergies from the winds stirring everything up. The pressure is to blend in, not necessarily by codes. And most especially in tourist areas or upscale places with HOAs or some equivalent. Even if they don't have regulatory powers they can bring a lot of pressure on any building projects. But the codes make building more expensive and most people can't afford it so they build to minimum. If it is an area that hasn't burned in a long time many buildings are older and built before the fire codes were in place. As to "fire proof" - it is "fire resistant" (just like "bullet proof" vests aren't, they are "bullet resistant") until you get up to materials almost no one but the wealthy can afford or would want to have a house made of in the first place. Stone, brick - not earthquake survivable for the most part. Concrete with rebar - not popular, too ugly and expensive. Making concrete look like stone - even more expensive. And of course this year most of the fires in CA are not in real forest. They are in the chaparral scrub country. Just because it is in a national or state "forest" doesn't mean what most elsewhere think of when they see the word "forest".
---Finally you can't just put high transmission power lines "in a pipe". They need heavy insulation or to be cabled in a vault. There are a lot of safety issues for linemen working in vaults with high transmission lines. You need access, which means a lot of very expensive roads in remote areas. Environmentally permitting is a tiny part of that and PG&E already has rights to the easements.[/quote
That is correct, it isn't so much a pipe as a large tunnel like New York subway tunnels, only smaller, it still has to be big enough for work to be done when needed. And that would require so much trenching, large expensive heavy insulated pipe. Probably at least 6'-8' diameter for workers to access lines, have room to work and a safety margin so they are not literally crawling on the lines. As you stated, access roads, access points to the pipes/tunnels etc and it is an expensive thing to do. PG&E is already in bankruptcy and God help us if the state government tries to do it themselves.
I think I will take enough allergy meds to go to sleep and leave the internet to take care of itself for a while. I am stuffed up, wheezing and in general feel like hell.
Here is an article by a professor discussing how CA got into this situation. Yes, it is Fox and he is a Conservative Republican but I have seen similar from other sources by much more liberal Democratic writers. This one just popped up on a news feed this morning.
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/victor-davis-hanson-california-premodern
I did not say bribe an inspector, I said make a campaign contribution - to a politician who would in turn put pressure on the inspectors.
As with your other answers I have seen you cherry pick, talk about "almost" the same thing etc. As to the "morons" wanting to build of stone - they are out there and I guess you recognized the signs from personal experience in the field.
---PG&E don't avoid cutting brush because of environmental laws. They've been court ordered to cut brush, they just didn't/ weren't able to do it enough. They have programmatic permits although they are pretty famous for not bothering to abide by them nothing ever happens to them when they don't.
The courts can order all the cutting they want (and most of that was after the problem got so bad) but the permits still need to be issued. And PG&E went bankrupt already back in Jan. They didn't closely check on the cutting done by contractors and just passed reports along that cutting had been done when it either hadn't or hadn't been done properly. As to PG&E not following the rules that is a long standing problem with a lot of companies in CA - and many of the politicians and appointed officials are right in the middle and part of the problem.
---And I would like to see the building code for the mythical places you assert force people to build wooden homes in CA in the forest and prevent you from using fire proof materials because my professional experience the exact opposite is the reality- you are required to make structures fire proof.
I worded that part poorly - my only excuse is feeling really crappy due to severe allergies from the winds stirring everything up. The pressure is to blend in, not necessarily by codes. And most especially in tourist areas or upscale places with HOAs or some equivalent. Even if they don't have regulatory powers they can bring a lot of pressure on any building projects. But the codes make building more expensive and most people can't afford it so they build to minimum. If it is an area that hasn't burned in a long time many buildings are older and built before the fire codes were in place. As to "fire proof" - it is "fire resistant" (just like "bullet proof" vests aren't, they are "bullet resistant") until you get up to materials almost no one but the wealthy can afford or would want to have a house made of in the first place. Stone, brick - not earthquake survivable for the most part. Concrete with rebar - not popular, too ugly and expensive. Making concrete look like stone - even more expensive. And of course this year most of the fires in CA are not in real forest. They are in the chaparral scrub country. Just because it is in a national or state "forest" doesn't mean what most elsewhere think of when they see the word "forest".
---Finally you can't just put high transmission power lines "in a pipe". They need heavy insulation or to be cabled in a vault. There are a lot of safety issues for linemen working in vaults with high transmission lines. You need access, which means a lot of very expensive roads in remote areas. Environmentally permitting is a tiny part of that and PG&E already has rights to the easements.[/quote
That is correct, it isn't so much a pipe as a large tunnel like New York subway tunnels, only smaller, it still has to be big enough for work to be done when needed. And that would require so much trenching, large expensive heavy insulated pipe. Probably at least 6'-8' diameter for workers to access lines, have room to work and a safety margin so they are not literally crawling on the lines. As you stated, access roads, access points to the pipes/tunnels etc and it is an expensive thing to do. PG&E is already in bankruptcy and God help us if the state government tries to do it themselves.
I think I will take enough allergy meds to go to sleep and leave the internet to take care of itself for a while. I am stuffed up, wheezing and in general feel like hell.
Here is an article by a professor discussing how CA got into this situation. Yes, it is Fox and he is a Conservative Republican but I have seen similar from other sources by much more liberal Democratic writers. This one just popped up on a news feed this morning.
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/victor-davis-hanson-california-premodern
Oct 31, 2019 13:16:08 #
RedPachyderm wrote:
Exactly! Use all the "illegals" to fight the fires. It might make them want to go back home :)
Not to fight fires but to clear brush etc.
Though hiring and training fire fighting crews from among them and giving them permits to legally travel back and forth across the border to be with their families when not clearing brush or helping fight fires might work. But the ones who fight fires would need good pay and benefits. That is dangerous work and requires a lot of training, skill and equipment if done right.
Oct 31, 2019 13:33:21 #
From a friend on Facebook
Is Pacific Gas and Electric company the blame for fires in California? Many will say yes. It is easy to target the biggest companies, and to get public support behind roasting them in the court of public opinion. "Pack mentality" is a term I learned years ago. A useful tool.
In March 2017, Lafayette and PG&E signed an agreement to remove 272 trees, including those along the Lafayette-Moraga Regional Trail and the Lafayette Reservoir Rim Trail. In June 2017, Save Lafayette Trees sued, seeking to rescind the agreement. Save Lafayette Trees contended that cutting down trees would not improve public safety and said the city did not evaluate the environmental impact of removing the trees.
From The sierra club, regarding plans by PG&E to trim brush and trees: "Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) is planning to clear cut wide swaths of trees surrounding power lines in an aggressive program that claims to address wildfire hazards as a part of their Fire Safety Zone work." Sierra Club filed a lawsuit to stop the brush and tree removal.
“PG&E is not adequately informing residents of their right to refuse to allow the removal or cutting of vegetation. PG&E is not a regulatory agency and their decisions do not carry the force of law,” Macy wrote in a lengthy email to county supervisors dated Sept. 14. That email also thanked 5th District Supervisor Bruce McPherson for his efforts “to keep PG&E from decimating the roadsides of the Santa Cruz Mountains.”
Santa Cruz County leaders have requested a halt to PG&E’s tree cutting outside city limits, pending a comprehensive study that assesses the combined scope of the removal of multiple trees from both public and private property on its side. Matt Johnston, a Santa Cruz County planner, says this group of informed neighbors has brought the issue to the attention of local officials.
Santa Cruz County land, however, might be a different story. PG&E needs a permit from the county before it can do enhanced vegetation work on land in the county’s right-of-way — for example, land next to county-owned roads and property, Brown said. He said the county can put conditions on the permit to make sure the PG&E work is done in the most environmentally friendly way possible.
The parallel timeline, of reduced logging, reduced livestock grazing, and the increase in California friendly environmental lawsuits, show how fire activity in this state has increased proportionally to the limitations placed upon private Ag and private enterprises.
We don't have a "Climate Change" crisis. We have a "Man Made Crisis".
When the insanity of saving the environment, means burning it to ashes to prove a political point, we have lost sanity.
Our current governor, is a replica of former governors of this state, and is the man holding the match for tomorrow's fires: "Gov. Gavin Newsom issued another scathing rebuke of the mass blackouts roiling California on Thursday, telling the state’s three major investor-owned electric utilities that they have not worked well enough with the government as they cut power to too many people for too long." Progressive government officials cause the problem, then try to tax,and regulate, a way out of the problem they created. It is always somebody else's fault.
[http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_31f17384-d25a-11e8-959c-276939161f8b.html](http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_31f17384-d25a-11e8-959c-276939161f8b.html)
Is Pacific Gas and Electric company the blame for fires in California? Many will say yes. It is easy to target the biggest companies, and to get public support behind roasting them in the court of public opinion. "Pack mentality" is a term I learned years ago. A useful tool.
In March 2017, Lafayette and PG&E signed an agreement to remove 272 trees, including those along the Lafayette-Moraga Regional Trail and the Lafayette Reservoir Rim Trail. In June 2017, Save Lafayette Trees sued, seeking to rescind the agreement. Save Lafayette Trees contended that cutting down trees would not improve public safety and said the city did not evaluate the environmental impact of removing the trees.
From The sierra club, regarding plans by PG&E to trim brush and trees: "Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) is planning to clear cut wide swaths of trees surrounding power lines in an aggressive program that claims to address wildfire hazards as a part of their Fire Safety Zone work." Sierra Club filed a lawsuit to stop the brush and tree removal.
“PG&E is not adequately informing residents of their right to refuse to allow the removal or cutting of vegetation. PG&E is not a regulatory agency and their decisions do not carry the force of law,” Macy wrote in a lengthy email to county supervisors dated Sept. 14. That email also thanked 5th District Supervisor Bruce McPherson for his efforts “to keep PG&E from decimating the roadsides of the Santa Cruz Mountains.”
Santa Cruz County leaders have requested a halt to PG&E’s tree cutting outside city limits, pending a comprehensive study that assesses the combined scope of the removal of multiple trees from both public and private property on its side. Matt Johnston, a Santa Cruz County planner, says this group of informed neighbors has brought the issue to the attention of local officials.
Santa Cruz County land, however, might be a different story. PG&E needs a permit from the county before it can do enhanced vegetation work on land in the county’s right-of-way — for example, land next to county-owned roads and property, Brown said. He said the county can put conditions on the permit to make sure the PG&E work is done in the most environmentally friendly way possible.
The parallel timeline, of reduced logging, reduced livestock grazing, and the increase in California friendly environmental lawsuits, show how fire activity in this state has increased proportionally to the limitations placed upon private Ag and private enterprises.
We don't have a "Climate Change" crisis. We have a "Man Made Crisis".
When the insanity of saving the environment, means burning it to ashes to prove a political point, we have lost sanity.
Our current governor, is a replica of former governors of this state, and is the man holding the match for tomorrow's fires: "Gov. Gavin Newsom issued another scathing rebuke of the mass blackouts roiling California on Thursday, telling the state’s three major investor-owned electric utilities that they have not worked well enough with the government as they cut power to too many people for too long." Progressive government officials cause the problem, then try to tax,and regulate, a way out of the problem they created. It is always somebody else's fault.
[http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_31f17384-d25a-11e8-959c-276939161f8b.html](http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_31f17384-d25a-11e8-959c-276939161f8b.html)
Oct 31, 2019 17:18:12 #
Nothing philosophical here from me just prayers and thoughts for your safety and rebuilding in a better future
Oct 31, 2019 18:29:51 #
Stan Gould
Loc: La Crosse, Wisconsin
donrosshill wrote:
... If California were to bite the Budget Bullet and spend the money that could be saved in not having to [fight] the fires. Don
California can’t bite the budget bullet. California’s economy is unsustainable. It has a pension deficit of nearly $200 billion alone, a massive spending v. revenue imbalance and the highest taxes in the US.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/2018/04/19/the-top-four-reasons-california-is-unsustainable/#f5217933a239
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