California Forest Fires
Oct 29, 2019 06:20:02 #
Once again California is experiencing terrible forest fires destroying homes, farms and businesses leaving behind a trail of damage affecting 1000's of residents
I feel very sorry for what is happening to our US friends but I cannot understand how the authorities allow houses built of wood are erected in a forest which regularly has these awful forest fires.
Why are the Electric Power companies permitted to erect power lines at such a low level so that sparks ignite the trees?
Here in the UK power lines are suspended from pylons which are 50 meters high and sparking is very unusual, in the US it seems the power supplies are of very poor quality if sparking is a regular occurrence, the power companies obviously know this is a problem so they shut the power off.
I feel very sorry for what is happening to our US friends but I cannot understand how the authorities allow houses built of wood are erected in a forest which regularly has these awful forest fires.
Why are the Electric Power companies permitted to erect power lines at such a low level so that sparks ignite the trees?
Here in the UK power lines are suspended from pylons which are 50 meters high and sparking is very unusual, in the US it seems the power supplies are of very poor quality if sparking is a regular occurrence, the power companies obviously know this is a problem so they shut the power off.
Oct 29, 2019 06:34:07 #
The power lines are very old. The infrastructure in this country is archaic. But don't worry our war machine beats everyone by far. How do you think we bailed you guys out twice in the last hundred years? LOL
Oct 29, 2019 06:38:17 #
A 10,000 word essay wouldn’t cover all the issues involved in this incredibly complex problem in California. Power lines, Santa Anna winds, poor brush management, global warming are all involved. Your point about building wood homes in areas with a history of forest fires is the the most relevant though. In the richest and most educated/informed state in our country you would think they might look to the early inhabitants of the area and build adobe style homes.
Oct 29, 2019 06:52:07 #
johneccles wrote:
Once again California is experiencing terrible for... (show quote)
Yes, it is a mess. You have to realize that the purpose of every big business in America is to generate as much money as possible for the owners, the executives, and the share holders. Period. Modernizing costs money and produces no profit. Executives and board members come and go, so they don't have to take much of the blame. "Those decisions were made before I came to the company." Then they move on to another company, making even more money.
Oct 29, 2019 06:55:48 #
foathog wrote:
The power lines are very old. The infrastructure in this country is archaic. But don't worry our war machine beats everyone by far. How do you think we bailed you guys out twice in the last hundred years? LOL
Yes, the power liens are old and not very well maintained. Anyone with half a brain would realize that having high voltage lines blowing in the wind over combustible material is a recipe for disaster. Of course they could do better, but that would eat into their profit. Burying the lines wold be expensive, but so is burning the state of California.
As for our war machine, spending more money that the next seven countries combined doesn't make our military the best. How long have we been in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Oct 29, 2019 07:46:33 #
“ In the richest and most educated/informed state in our country.?”
I thought we were talking about California! “The most educated/informed?” I think not!
Oh, and how do you make an adobe roof? Roofs would have to be of steel, or the like, and in the end how many would move back to live in an adobe home located in a burned out forest?
In the end they paid a fortune to live in wooded areas, and now they are paying with their future.
Wild fires are going to happen. They have for eons of years. Given the political/financial realities today, live where you will not burn. Then you will not have to blame others for your losses.
I thought we were talking about California! “The most educated/informed?” I think not!
Oh, and how do you make an adobe roof? Roofs would have to be of steel, or the like, and in the end how many would move back to live in an adobe home located in a burned out forest?
In the end they paid a fortune to live in wooded areas, and now they are paying with their future.
Wild fires are going to happen. They have for eons of years. Given the political/financial realities today, live where you will not burn. Then you will not have to blame others for your losses.
Oct 29, 2019 08:09:52 #
Many adobe style structures have Mediterranean style clay roofs. They are much less likely than cedar or assault to catch fire from floating embers.
Oct 29, 2019 09:59:57 #
Oct 29, 2019 13:38:01 #
Harry0
Loc: Gardena, Cal
DavidPhares wrote:
“ In the richest and most educated/informed state ... (show quote)
Yada yada.
Look at Palos Verdes. Rich folk in a fire zone.
They have strict building codes. Fire proof roof. Fire proof walls. Maintained yards- no flammables.
You see the fires go right up to the property lines- and move along. Everybody is safe and sound.
Then you have those "other" areas. City Councils water down the codes- builders can pre pay the fines for an inadequate structure, roll them into the mortgage, and the new owner will never know.
The one I liked, tho: Whiny skinny blonde, 'splaining why it's not her fault her place burned. The wooden shingles were grandfathered in, and the City Council allowed it because it looked "quaint" up there in Paradise. Yeah, no. It wasn't grandfathered in- the last place with wood shingles burned down over a decade ago. She took the metal roof off the "new" place, and replaced it with old recycled wooden shingles from someone else's redo. On top of the ubiquitous tar and paper membrane.
Oct 29, 2019 13:50:27 #
During last year's fires there was a story about a guy who built a house using fireproof materials. Sounds like a plan for rebuilding in these areas. Also hafta wonder about the possiblilty of putting powerlines underground in these highly combustible areas.
Oct 29, 2019 16:18:33 #
[quote=johneccles]Once again California is experiencing terrible forest fires destroying homes, farms and businesses leaving behind a trail of damage affecting 1000's of residents
I feel very sorry for what is happening to our US friends but I cannot understand how the authorities allow houses built of wood are erected in a forest which regularly has these awful forest fires.
Why are the Electric Power companies permitted to erect power lines at such a low level so that sparks ignite the trees?
Here in the UK power lines are suspended from pylons which are 50 meters high and sparking is very unusual, in the US it seems the power supplies are of very poor quality if sparking is a regular occurrence, the power companies obviously know this is a problem so they shut the power off.[/quote
A large part of the problem in California is the State government and environmental laws.
The environmentalists got cutting brush and trees made very hard to get permits for to the point most just say "forget about it". So the dead leaves, needles etc build up, dry in our long hot summers and can burn like gasoline(petrol) if a fire starts. Every little fire started by lightening or other causes is put out as soon as possible so most of that "under burden" builds up for years or decades. In the real natural way those small fires burn fast and not very hot clearing out the under burden without killing the mature trees and the ash acts as fertilizer. But protect it from fire and don't allow it to be cleaned up and then you get a hot dry spell with strong winds and a fire almost explodes, two or three big ones and the fire fighters are too thin on the ground to fight them very well - remember they still need to cover the towns and cities. So they use trained teams of prisoners from minimum security prisons, National Guard soldiers and teams from other states, if they don't have fires of their own. Some of the Indian tribes train teams on their reservations and travel where needed. Those teams and the prisoners often get cheered by residents as heroes (they are, lots of stories of them risking their lives to help people).
The power companies were urged/required to build wind farms and solar farms for "renewable" energy - then they need transmission lines to get that power some where. The long distance towers are 100-120 feet tall with the lowest power lines at 60-70 feet. Bury the lines in pipes, NO, too much damage to the environment/land. Of course those buried lines last a lot longer, no wear and tear from wind, rain etc and even if they spark, no fire under ground inside a pipe.
Then the power companies were required to give people rebates etc for: electric cars, charging stations for same, home solar installation, new lower power using appliances etc etc etc.
And the stock/bond holders would rebel and vote everyone out if they don't get a return on their money. So very little money to repair and maintain things (not to mention all those permits, environmental studies etc to do any repair, upgrading etc) and the infrastructure just gets older and worse. More problems.
So the power companies are now turning off the power in areas so there can't be sparks - and 100,000's of people are without electricity. Including those with electrical medical equipment. If someone wants a generator for blackouts, you guessed it, in most areas they need a special permit and a study to install it and store enough fuel to run it.
The rates they can charge for electricity are controlled by government. And the politicians fear that they may one day jack the taxes, fees etc up to the point that the voters will finally get tired of them and vote them out of office. Go out and get a real job!!!! And lose all that wonderful power and feeling of being better than everyone else!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhh, NO I can't face it.
So increases in electric rates are extremely hard to get.
As to wooden houses in the forests*. In some places they are required and must "fit the environment" and you can't clear cut around the buildings to hold back fire. Stone etc would be much more expensive (plus-quarry all that stone-no, it will hurt the environment). Build of concrete made to look like stone - most couldn't afford a home then. And you would need special permits etc. CA has so many regulations and fees to build new houses that at least 1/3 of the cost of new a house/building is dictated by the government. And the regulations require power lines to those houses must blend in, so none of those 120 foot towers. Shorter mostly wooden posts in residential areas. Some have underground wire but it is more expensive and harder to modify and maintain. The power pole(phone lines also) in my back yard is 50-60 feet tall and is about average for a residential area in the city.
*A lot of that "forest" isn't really. It is tall brush (15-20 feet) of the type we call chaparral with trees in the better watered areas. A lot of that arid country brush is high oil content-it burns really well, esp the creosote bushes found mixed in or even dominating in many southern desert areas.
I feel very sorry for what is happening to our US friends but I cannot understand how the authorities allow houses built of wood are erected in a forest which regularly has these awful forest fires.
Why are the Electric Power companies permitted to erect power lines at such a low level so that sparks ignite the trees?
Here in the UK power lines are suspended from pylons which are 50 meters high and sparking is very unusual, in the US it seems the power supplies are of very poor quality if sparking is a regular occurrence, the power companies obviously know this is a problem so they shut the power off.[/quote
A large part of the problem in California is the State government and environmental laws.
The environmentalists got cutting brush and trees made very hard to get permits for to the point most just say "forget about it". So the dead leaves, needles etc build up, dry in our long hot summers and can burn like gasoline(petrol) if a fire starts. Every little fire started by lightening or other causes is put out as soon as possible so most of that "under burden" builds up for years or decades. In the real natural way those small fires burn fast and not very hot clearing out the under burden without killing the mature trees and the ash acts as fertilizer. But protect it from fire and don't allow it to be cleaned up and then you get a hot dry spell with strong winds and a fire almost explodes, two or three big ones and the fire fighters are too thin on the ground to fight them very well - remember they still need to cover the towns and cities. So they use trained teams of prisoners from minimum security prisons, National Guard soldiers and teams from other states, if they don't have fires of their own. Some of the Indian tribes train teams on their reservations and travel where needed. Those teams and the prisoners often get cheered by residents as heroes (they are, lots of stories of them risking their lives to help people).
The power companies were urged/required to build wind farms and solar farms for "renewable" energy - then they need transmission lines to get that power some where. The long distance towers are 100-120 feet tall with the lowest power lines at 60-70 feet. Bury the lines in pipes, NO, too much damage to the environment/land. Of course those buried lines last a lot longer, no wear and tear from wind, rain etc and even if they spark, no fire under ground inside a pipe.
Then the power companies were required to give people rebates etc for: electric cars, charging stations for same, home solar installation, new lower power using appliances etc etc etc.
And the stock/bond holders would rebel and vote everyone out if they don't get a return on their money. So very little money to repair and maintain things (not to mention all those permits, environmental studies etc to do any repair, upgrading etc) and the infrastructure just gets older and worse. More problems.
So the power companies are now turning off the power in areas so there can't be sparks - and 100,000's of people are without electricity. Including those with electrical medical equipment. If someone wants a generator for blackouts, you guessed it, in most areas they need a special permit and a study to install it and store enough fuel to run it.
The rates they can charge for electricity are controlled by government. And the politicians fear that they may one day jack the taxes, fees etc up to the point that the voters will finally get tired of them and vote them out of office. Go out and get a real job!!!! And lose all that wonderful power and feeling of being better than everyone else!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhh, NO I can't face it.
So increases in electric rates are extremely hard to get.
As to wooden houses in the forests*. In some places they are required and must "fit the environment" and you can't clear cut around the buildings to hold back fire. Stone etc would be much more expensive (plus-quarry all that stone-no, it will hurt the environment). Build of concrete made to look like stone - most couldn't afford a home then. And you would need special permits etc. CA has so many regulations and fees to build new houses that at least 1/3 of the cost of new a house/building is dictated by the government. And the regulations require power lines to those houses must blend in, so none of those 120 foot towers. Shorter mostly wooden posts in residential areas. Some have underground wire but it is more expensive and harder to modify and maintain. The power pole(phone lines also) in my back yard is 50-60 feet tall and is about average for a residential area in the city.
*A lot of that "forest" isn't really. It is tall brush (15-20 feet) of the type we call chaparral with trees in the better watered areas. A lot of that arid country brush is high oil content-it burns really well, esp the creosote bushes found mixed in or even dominating in many southern desert areas.
chaparral/cresote "forest" aprx 15 feet tall
real pine forest (not Redwood or Sequoia)
the way they want "forrest" camps and building to look.
Oct 29, 2019 16:24:34 #
[quote=uhaas2009]Hurricanes, tomatoes, floods, fire is here a common problem......[/quote
Could you mean tornados?
Could you mean tornados?
Oct 29, 2019 17:31:02 #
A recent Documentary by the BBC showed last year's Dreadful California's fires that destroyed much of the township of Paradise. The Television producer and presenter Simon Reeve mentioned at the end of the program that some of the townspeople were planning to sue the power company responsible for the fire. He also highlighted huge tracts of the Californian landscape that had subsided (by many feet) through water being drawn from the underground Aquifers for crop irrigation.
Oct 29, 2019 17:34:54 #
Doddy wrote:
A recent Documentary by the BBC showed last year's Dreadful California's fires that destroyed much of the township of Paradise. The Television producer and presenter Simon Reeve mentioned at the end of the program that some of the townspeople were planning to sue the power company responsible for the fire. He also highlighted huge tracts of the Californian landscape that had subsided (by many feet) through water being drawn from the underground Aquifers for crop irrigation.
As I pointed out the state regulations etc contributed a lot to the problems. But suing the state is harder than a power company.
Oct 29, 2019 18:51:12 #
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.