Nitpicking points to ponder
Aug 17, 2019 01:21:48 #
Wallen wrote:
B. An amateur does things for the love of doing it. They do not get paid and although it also means incompetent, many amateurs are far better and knowledgeable than some professionals.
B. An amateur does things for the love of doing it. They do not get paid and although it also means incompetent, many amateurs are far better and knowledgeable than some professionals.
Incorrect... Some amateurs are very competent.
Aug 17, 2019 02:49:09 #
Gene51 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. And it is one more example of a very annoying troll post, which we have way too many of on this forum already. After taking the minute or so to read the rantings of the madman (I use that term only because he seems to have written it before his morning coffee or after a bad night and he sounds mad), I have not furthered my photographic knowledge one bit - another complete and total waste of my time. 
Aug 17, 2019 07:23:27 #
Abo wrote:
Incorrect... Some amateurs are very competent.
He did say that in his last sentence.
"...far better and knowledgeable..."
Aug 17, 2019 08:32:48 #
Aug 17, 2019 08:49:38 #
d3200prime wrote:
Yada, Yada, Yada. Just another pointless, absurd, meaningless post.
If you have a better topic for a post PLEASE post it.
Aug 17, 2019 08:55:35 #
Aug 17, 2019 09:05:36 #
Tomcat5133
Loc: Gladwyne PA
Tomcat5133 wrote:
This is very interesting. Recently I have read som... (show quote)
Aug 17, 2019 11:54:45 #
This is an excerpt for the OP's post. They seem like dictionary or encyclopedic definitions with some added opinion but there are many inaccuracies and misconceptions that are oftentimes repeated on this forum. So... as a full-time, lifetime career professional in photography, I will offer my OPINION.
Here's the quote:
"A. A professional is someone who earns their living from their activity.
It does not always mean they are experts in their careers, just that they are earning out of it.
An attitude or way that directly improves the activity
B. An amateur does things for the love of doing it. They do not get paid and although it also means incompetent, many amateurs are far better and knowledgeable than some professionals".
Here my gut reaction: NONSENSE!
Here's my more scholarly explanation:
Professionalism should not only be defined by anyone simply receiving money for goods and services regardless of the quality, craftsmanship or artistry. Consumers of photography on retail, commercial, or industrial level are not fools. They are no going to spend their hard-earned personal or closely monitored corporate funds on substandard workmanship or on items that they can produce themselves or with the services of an amateur. Professional photography is a highly competitive business on two fronts. There are many competent professionals vying for work in the same markets and a significant population of amateurs and part-timers that take on various photographic jobs. If the true profession's work is not outstanding and a significant cut above the rest, he or she will not remain in business for any length of time. Any potential buyer with a modicum of common sense and a good set of eyes in there head are goi to expect, at least, competent technically excellent work for a professional and hopefully work of artistic merit.
Professional photograph, in most jurisdictions in North America and many other countries, is an unlicensed and unregulated profession. Anyone can startup a photographic business with routine business permit registration, a taxation license and a business card. There are no legal standards, mandatory affiliation with a guild, regulatory, college or body or association. There, are, however, well know and time-honored association that professional photographer can join on an invitational or voluntary basis. These may offer many educational opportunities and have programs where masterships, craftsmanships, certificates of professional status and other credentials can be earned and awarded. Again, their memberships are strictly on a voluntary basis. There are codes of ethics, standards and the credentials are no given away easily- there is a lengthy process of competitive performance and service. There is no real censure or disciplinary enforcement powers.
Of course, all businesses are subject to consumer protection laws and regulations but the governments do bother regulating a business that is not involved or safety or legal status of the public. Than goodness pro photographers are not doctors, lawyers, accountants, and engineers. If they disservice their clients nobody dies, get sicker, goes bankrupt, lands in jail or has the house cave in or have airplanes fall out of the sky. Incompetent professional photographers can be held legally responsible for no-performance, and there have been some nasty lawsuits that found wedding shooters and commercial photographers disrespecting deadlines and those operating without proper releases, on the receiving end of a very large and nasty judgment against them that drove them right int bankruptcy. Wehn so-called professional photographer does not perform in an ethical and competent manner the only thing they kill is their own business.
Successful professional photographers have to be incredibly good multitaskers. Besides being good technicians and hopefully artists, the have to look after their businesses- accounting, taxation, staff (HR) issues, salaries, overhead expenses, marketing, advertising, public relations and much more. It's not a job for the lazy, complacent, sloppy operator or faint of heart shooter!
Artistry? Some photographers of every ilk can be artists with all the necessary attributes, talents and sensitivities. There are some pre- photographers, who maintain a successful business, who t are not intrinsically artistic but can produce technically competent and very acceptable work. The choices are then up to the consumer.
Amateurs? It's too bad that the word "amateur" has a secondary definition that has become the primary one, "INEPT OR INCOMPETENT"! That ain't necessarily so- there are no doubt talented and extremely artistic amateur photographers. And yes there are "hacks" in the business. The amateurs are not working under the same pressure as pros and in many cases may produce images that surpass that of professionals but it is not a general rule in my experience. I do recall the true and kinder definition of amateurism as doing things for the love of the craft or sport. In all my 56 years in the profession and an amateur on my days off, I have NEVER encountered a successful amateur or professional photographer who was not in LOVE with the hobby, art or profession. I only met a few that were in it strictly for the money and their businesses was extremely short-lived for two major reasons. The first one is the old adage about "not fooling ALL the people ALL of the timed...etc, and the other reason it just too hard a job for the unenthusiastic and they just fizzle out.
There are too many folks who have no idea of what goes on in the photographic profession and choose to pontificate on the state of a industry that the knowe little or nothing about. I would just like to leave some of this insight behind for the few folks around this site who may be interested in pursuing a career in photography. If you have the know-how, talent, and the moxie- you can do it!
PS- For those who are interested in finding out more about professional photography look into theses organizations; The Professional Photographers of America, The Professional Photographer of Canada, The American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP), The New York Press Photographers Association, The Royal Photographic Society of Great Britain- just to name a few of the majors.
Here's the quote:
"A. A professional is someone who earns their living from their activity.
It does not always mean they are experts in their careers, just that they are earning out of it.
An attitude or way that directly improves the activity
B. An amateur does things for the love of doing it. They do not get paid and although it also means incompetent, many amateurs are far better and knowledgeable than some professionals".
Here my gut reaction: NONSENSE!
Here's my more scholarly explanation:
Professionalism should not only be defined by anyone simply receiving money for goods and services regardless of the quality, craftsmanship or artistry. Consumers of photography on retail, commercial, or industrial level are not fools. They are no going to spend their hard-earned personal or closely monitored corporate funds on substandard workmanship or on items that they can produce themselves or with the services of an amateur. Professional photography is a highly competitive business on two fronts. There are many competent professionals vying for work in the same markets and a significant population of amateurs and part-timers that take on various photographic jobs. If the true profession's work is not outstanding and a significant cut above the rest, he or she will not remain in business for any length of time. Any potential buyer with a modicum of common sense and a good set of eyes in there head are goi to expect, at least, competent technically excellent work for a professional and hopefully work of artistic merit.
Professional photograph, in most jurisdictions in North America and many other countries, is an unlicensed and unregulated profession. Anyone can startup a photographic business with routine business permit registration, a taxation license and a business card. There are no legal standards, mandatory affiliation with a guild, regulatory, college or body or association. There, are, however, well know and time-honored association that professional photographer can join on an invitational or voluntary basis. These may offer many educational opportunities and have programs where masterships, craftsmanships, certificates of professional status and other credentials can be earned and awarded. Again, their memberships are strictly on a voluntary basis. There are codes of ethics, standards and the credentials are no given away easily- there is a lengthy process of competitive performance and service. There is no real censure or disciplinary enforcement powers.
Of course, all businesses are subject to consumer protection laws and regulations but the governments do bother regulating a business that is not involved or safety or legal status of the public. Than goodness pro photographers are not doctors, lawyers, accountants, and engineers. If they disservice their clients nobody dies, get sicker, goes bankrupt, lands in jail or has the house cave in or have airplanes fall out of the sky. Incompetent professional photographers can be held legally responsible for no-performance, and there have been some nasty lawsuits that found wedding shooters and commercial photographers disrespecting deadlines and those operating without proper releases, on the receiving end of a very large and nasty judgment against them that drove them right int bankruptcy. Wehn so-called professional photographer does not perform in an ethical and competent manner the only thing they kill is their own business.
Successful professional photographers have to be incredibly good multitaskers. Besides being good technicians and hopefully artists, the have to look after their businesses- accounting, taxation, staff (HR) issues, salaries, overhead expenses, marketing, advertising, public relations and much more. It's not a job for the lazy, complacent, sloppy operator or faint of heart shooter!
Artistry? Some photographers of every ilk can be artists with all the necessary attributes, talents and sensitivities. There are some pre- photographers, who maintain a successful business, who t are not intrinsically artistic but can produce technically competent and very acceptable work. The choices are then up to the consumer.
Amateurs? It's too bad that the word "amateur" has a secondary definition that has become the primary one, "INEPT OR INCOMPETENT"! That ain't necessarily so- there are no doubt talented and extremely artistic amateur photographers. And yes there are "hacks" in the business. The amateurs are not working under the same pressure as pros and in many cases may produce images that surpass that of professionals but it is not a general rule in my experience. I do recall the true and kinder definition of amateurism as doing things for the love of the craft or sport. In all my 56 years in the profession and an amateur on my days off, I have NEVER encountered a successful amateur or professional photographer who was not in LOVE with the hobby, art or profession. I only met a few that were in it strictly for the money and their businesses was extremely short-lived for two major reasons. The first one is the old adage about "not fooling ALL the people ALL of the timed...etc, and the other reason it just too hard a job for the unenthusiastic and they just fizzle out.
There are too many folks who have no idea of what goes on in the photographic profession and choose to pontificate on the state of a industry that the knowe little or nothing about. I would just like to leave some of this insight behind for the few folks around this site who may be interested in pursuing a career in photography. If you have the know-how, talent, and the moxie- you can do it!
PS- For those who are interested in finding out more about professional photography look into theses organizations; The Professional Photographers of America, The Professional Photographer of Canada, The American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP), The New York Press Photographers Association, The Royal Photographic Society of Great Britain- just to name a few of the majors.
Aug 20, 2019 00:46:03 #
Longshadow wrote:
He did say that in his last sentence.
"...far better and knowledgeable..."
"...far better and knowledgeable..."
I did not say "far better and knowledgeable" is/was incorrect.
I said amateurs are not necessarily incompetent. ie 'amateurs are incompetent" is incorrect.
What part of that don't you understand Longy?
Aug 20, 2019 07:09:31 #
Abo wrote:
I did not say "far better and knowledgeable" is/was incorrect.
I said amateurs are not necessarily incompetent. ie 'amateurs are incompetent" is incorrect.
What part of that don't you understand Longy?
I said amateurs are not necessarily incompetent. ie 'amateurs are incompetent" is incorrect.
What part of that don't you understand Longy?
So did he: (some are far better ≈more competent) in the later part of his sentence.
What part of that didn't you understand?
And some are not.
But, that was your inference.
Aug 20, 2019 09:02:40 #
I am proud to be an Amateur Photographer, that just means I am still
Learning, and I will always be an Amateur for just that reason. Photography to me is not a Job or a Profession, it is a Hobby I enjoy.
Now really is there anything wrong with just being a enjoyable, part-time, Hobby?
Learning, and I will always be an Amateur for just that reason. Photography to me is not a Job or a Profession, it is a Hobby I enjoy.
Now really is there anything wrong with just being a enjoyable, part-time, Hobby?
Aug 20, 2019 09:13:46 #
Silverman wrote:
I am proud to be an Amateur Photographer, that just means I am still
Learning, and I will always be an Amateur for just that reason. Photography to me is not a Job or a Profession, it is a Hobby I enjoy.
Now really is there anything wrong with just being a enjoyable, part-time, Hobby?
Learning, and I will always be an Amateur for just that reason. Photography to me is not a Job or a Profession, it is a Hobby I enjoy.
Now really is there anything wrong with just being a enjoyable, part-time, Hobby?
Not al all!
I've been doing it since 1972, and still learning!
It's my hobby also.
And I enjoy it because I don't worry about things that don't need worrying.
Aug 20, 2019 21:31:35 #
Longshadow wrote:
So did he: (some are far better ≈more competent) in the later part of his sentence.
What part of that didn't you understand?
And some are not.
But, that was your inference.
What part of that didn't you understand?
And some are not.
But, that was your inference.
Unlike you, I understand that the post we refer to contradicts itself.
I made it plainly obvious that the part of the post that was incorrect
was the unqualified "Amateurs are incompetent".
Pull the Rebel out of your rectum, take it off Full Auto for a change,
and learn how to use a camera, instead of being a trolling nuisance.
Aug 21, 2019 07:00:08 #
Abo wrote:
Unlike you, I understand that the post we refer to contradicts itself.
I made it plainly obvious that the part of the post that was incorrect
was the unqualified "Amateurs are incompetent".
Pull the Rebel out of your rectum, take it off Full Auto for a change,
and learn how to use a camera, instead of being a trolling nuisance.
I made it plainly obvious that the part of the post that was incorrect
was the unqualified "Amateurs are incompetent".
Pull the Rebel out of your rectum, take it off Full Auto for a change,
and learn how to use a camera, instead of being a trolling nuisance.
Yet another person who makes me so glad I'm me.
I feel so sorry for you.
Aug 22, 2019 03:42:40 #
Longshadow wrote:
Yet another person who makes me so glad I'm me.
I feel so sorry for you.
I feel so sorry for you.
pffft lol
But those are very nasty words Bill... you get out of the wrong
side of the bed, or is it a bad time of the month for you.
By the way, you got your Rebel off full auto yet?
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