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Removing Distractions - Part 2 - Making a Copy
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Apr 18, 2019 11:36:46   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
mwsilvers wrote:
I'm not sure you completely understand the use of the word destructive in this context. It means that no permanent modifications have been made to the original image file being edited. PS and most other pixel editors are destructive which is why ones needs to make backup copies or convert to a different format to retain the integrity of the original image. Lightroom, DXO Photolab, ON1, Capture One Pro 12 and other raw editors are non destructive because edits are NEVER applied directly to the edited image regardless of the file format being edited. Non destructive software generally has no save option and any edits are automatically retained in a database and/or sidecar files. Edits are only permanently applied to exported versions of the original file, usually in tiff or jpeg formats.
I'm not sure you completely understand the use of ... (show quote)


Several responses now seem to have ignored that doing all your editing in PS on layers is nondestructive of the original, and can be changed at any later time.

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Apr 18, 2019 12:15:56   #
russelray Loc: La Mesa CA
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
My point was that you have to know how to use Photoshop to keep it from being a destructive program. It can be a destructive program unless you take action to keep it from overwriting your original.

Any program can be destructive if one doesn't learn how to use it. Heck, Lightroom can be destructive because it way too often loses photos from its library.

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Apr 18, 2019 12:21:17   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
mwsilvers wrote:
You can do various things to protect the integrity of the original image, as you mention, but the only reason one has to do that is because PS is destructive. So to suggest that it "can be a destructive program " is not really accurate. PS, by definition, is a destructive editor.


Point taken.
I was considering "destructive" to refer to the original file.

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Apr 18, 2019 12:27:00   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
Several responses now seem to have ignored that doing all your editing in PS on layers is nondestructive of the original, and can be changed at any later time.


True, you can preserve the original in a layer.
But PS does not HAVE to use layers, so the layer with the original image could be modified.
If you save an edited image from PS to the same filename, in the same format, in the same folder, the original will be destroyed.

As many people have noted, taking the proper actions will preserve the original in PS. Some actions will preserve the original image file and some actions will preserve the original image in a layer of a PSD.

If you flatten the image in PS, you remove all the layers. And a lot of people flatten their files because they can get pretty large otherwise.

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Apr 18, 2019 12:32:20   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
russelray wrote:
Any program can be destructive if one doesn't learn how to use it. Heck, Lightroom can be destructive because it way too often loses photos from its library.


I don't recall that any of my copies of LR have lost any of the photos from the library.
I have fat-fingered problems occasionally, but they're problems with me, not LR.
I believe that once a library was corrupted, but a recent backup of the library enabled me to continue working with only a day's loss. And I can't blame LR for corruption of a file. It's more likely to be a computer problem or the action of the operator or a power glitch.

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Apr 18, 2019 13:18:05   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
It is perfectly reasonable concept to do editing on a COPY of a photo file, rather than "tampering" with the original.
That way you don't have to wonder what your editing program is doing/not doing, as is evident from the responses, and if you mess up entirely in any way, you always have the original to go back to (and make a new copy).

This could be considered "common sense". Why discourage the OP from doing it?

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Apr 18, 2019 13:22:27   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
nadelewitz wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable concept to do editing on a COPY of a photo file, rather than "tampering" with the original.
That way you don't have to wonder what your editing program is doing/not doing, as is evident from the responses, and if you mess up entirely in any way, you always have the original to go back to (and make a new copy).

This could be considered "common sense". Why discourage the OP from doing it?


Fortunately, our OP " ..... but I have Lightroom and it is nondestructive .... " knows and understands more about the issues and software tools than many of the respondents ....

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Apr 18, 2019 13:46:12   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
nadelewitz wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable concept to do editing on a COPY of a photo file, rather than "tampering" with the original.
That way you don't have to wonder what your editing program is doing/not doing, as is evident from the responses, and if you mess up entirely in any way, you always have the original to go back to (and make a new copy).

This could be considered "common sense". Why discourage the OP from doing it?


Because it's not always necessary and making a copy of everything fills your disk twice as fast.

A better process would be to understand when it is necessary to make a copy and when it isn't.

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Apr 18, 2019 14:01:33   #
via the lens Loc: Northern California, near Yosemite NP
 
nadelewitz wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable concept to do editing on a COPY of a photo file, rather than "tampering" with the original.
That way you don't have to wonder what your editing program is doing/not doing, as is evident from the responses, and if you mess up entirely in any way, you always have the original to go back to (and make a new copy).

This could be considered "common sense". Why discourage the OP from doing it?


Because he uses LR and it is simply not needed.

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Apr 18, 2019 14:16:13   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
gvarner wrote:
PS is not destructive and I would go farther and say that no editing program is destructive. Just apply a little common sense and work from a copy of your original, or, like in PS and Elements, save your edited version as a PSD or rename it when you save it to differentiate it from the original. I load all my originals to a folder on an external drive and then copy that folder to my HD to work on in PS Elements. When I finish editing I save as PSD files so I can go back and do more edits if needed. I can then convert the PSD files to JPEG's or any other format I need and place them into a new folder for use by other programs or emailing.
PS is not destructive and I would go farther and s... (show quote)


Yup. It is just that a lot of people it seems do not know the difference between SAVE and SAVE AS. I don't have Lr and I destroy nothing with Ps CS6.

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Apr 18, 2019 14:47:27   #
tommystrat Loc: Bigfork, Montana
 
traderjohn wrote:
A lot of people are experts. Just ask them.


LOL!

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Apr 18, 2019 15:16:48   #
patman1 Loc: Pataskala, Ohio
 
lamiaceae wrote:
Yup. It is just that a lot of people it seems do not know the difference between SAVE and SAVE AS. I don't have Lr and I destroy nothing with Ps CS6.


I agree with you 100%, if you learn the basic fundamentals in working with PS you will never destroy an original.
NO. 1 all my photos are shot as Raw images
NO. 2 all photos are worked on copies only
No. 3 all work is done on layers
No. 4 Final copies are Save As, renamed and placed in its final location
Following these procedures as spelled out in the Adobe instructions as per the use of PS are quite clear. So my suggestion is to sit down with a manual and learn proper proceedures.

I am an expert in PS, been using it since its inception, PS 1, I believe it was about 1975. I also worked for for one of the largest Advertising Agencies in the world, DDB WORLDWIDE and these procedures were adhered too exclusively. LR was not used at all, it's really not meant for Advertising, more for Weddings were treatments can be made globally across many images.

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Apr 18, 2019 15:41:50   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
Several responses now seem to have ignored that doing all your editing in PS on layers is nondestructive of the original, and can be changed at any later time.


Yes. And I understand about smart objects as well. I should have been clearer in my comments. Generally any image software that saves its edits permanently to the image file being edited is destructive editing. Non-destructive editing only applies edits permanently to exported or output files, not the originally edited files.

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Apr 18, 2019 15:45:14   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
patman1 wrote:
I agree with you 100%, if you learn the basic fundamentals in working with PS you will never destroy an original.
NO. 1 all my photos are shot as Raw images
NO. 2 all photos are worked on copies only
No. 3 all work is done on layers
No. 4 Final copies are Save As, renamed and placed in its final location
Following these procedures as spelled out in the Adobe instructions as per the use of PS are quite clear. So my suggestion is to sit down with a manual and learn proper proceedures.

I am an expert in PS, been using it since its inception, PS 1, I believe it was about 1975. I also worked for for one of the largest Advertising Agencies in the world, DDB WORLDWIDE and these procedures were adhered too exclusively. LR was not used at all, it's really not meant for Advertising, more for Weddings were treatments can be made globally across many images.
I agree with you 100%, if you learn the basic fund... (show quote)


I can't claim to be an expert in PS, only been using it for about 15 years.
1. I shoot raw only when possible. I don't have that option with my iPhone or with some modes in my D4/D5.
2. I guess all my original files are copies. The original was on the camera card and that has been reformatted. Additional copies are in my archives.
3. 90% of my work is done in LR, 10% in PS. The PS work is probably 70% layers, 30% single layer. But since the file has been sent to PS from LR, the original copy is preserved. All my image work in PS comes from LR. An occasional graphics piece will get generated in PS directly, but those things are specialty items for me and don't usually go into LR.
4. My PS work is saved and returned to LR. It uses the same name since I place useful names on my original copies at download time. The PS file is saved as psd, and shows up in the LR catalog, so I have both the original raw and the psd I can work on separately (in the rare case that any further work needs to be done). As far as the final location is concerned, that is the location saved in the LR catalog. If I need another copy for some other purpose I export it from LR.

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Apr 18, 2019 15:50:07   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
The old saying is..."Better safe than sorry."
In addition, if the original file is stored an another hard drive, you are protected from loss, as with any other important data.

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