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Stop listening to the TV and read a little bit.... CBO forecast.
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Feb 12, 2013 18:24:55   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
Here is a snippit....

Quote:
Outlays
In CBO’s baseline projections, federal spending rises over the next few years in dollar terms but falls relative to the size of the economy. During those years, the growth of spending will be restrained both by the strengthening economy (as spending for programs such as unemployment compensation drops) and by provisions of the Budget Control Act of 2011 (Public Law 112-25). Although outlays are projected to decline from 22.8 percent of GDP in 2012 to 21.5 percent by 2017, they will still exceed their 40-year average of 21.0 percent. (Outlays peaked at 25.2 percent of GDP in 2009 but have fallen relative to GDP in the past few years.)

After 2017, if current laws remain in place, outlays will start growing again as a percentage of GDP. The aging of the population, increasing health care costs, and a significant expansion of eligibility for federal subsidies for health insurance will substantially boost spending for Social Security and for major health care programs relative to the size of the economy. At the same time, rising interest rates will significantly increase the government’s debt-service costs. In CBO’s baseline, outlays reach about 23 percent of GDP in 2023 and are on an upward trajectory.
Outlays br In CBO’s baseline projections, federal ... (show quote)


More interesting here is the full report!

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43907

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Feb 12, 2013 19:36:01   #
skidooman Loc: Minnesota
 
Some people won't even believe what the non partison CBO lays out.

Reply
Feb 12, 2013 20:26:46   #
Danilo Loc: Las Vegas
 
skidooman wrote:
Some people won't even believe what the non partison CBO lays out.


Here's a little different angle to your point, skidooman:
CBO is non-partisan related to Republican/Democrat persuasions. But consider government/citizen partisanship. Obviously the CBO will favor a pro-government position.

Reply
 
 
Feb 12, 2013 20:34:32   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the SOTU address tonight, I am predicting that the president will call for new "investments" or spending as most of us know it, and suggest that it will be paid for in with new revenues and cuts already made....

Interesting in the CBO report they are projecting Obama's first sub trillion dollar deficit this year, but I don't think that the president will restrain himself, he will lobby for additional spending. What was also interesting in the CBO report is that they are projecting the interest on our debt to increase to 5% in just a few years... that will cripple federal budgets... But, our democratic leadership seems incapable of thinking out that far...

Reply
Feb 12, 2013 21:20:54   #
skidooman Loc: Minnesota
 
Danilo wrote:
skidooman wrote:
Some people won't even believe what the non partison CBO lays out.


Here's a little different angle to your point, skidooman:
CBO is non-partisan related to Republican/Democrat persuasions. But consider government/citizen partisanship. Obviously the CBO will favor a pro-government position.




Two :thumbup: :thumbup: to that.

Reply
Feb 13, 2013 00:37:30   #
Danilo Loc: Las Vegas
 
Blurryeyed wrote:
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the SOTU address tonight, I am predicting that the president will call for new "investments" or spending as most of us know it, and suggest that it will be paid for in with new revenues and cuts already made....

Interesting in the CBO report they are projecting Obama's first sub trillion dollar deficit this year, but I don't think that the president will restrain himself, he will lobby for additional spending. What was also interesting in the CBO report is that they are projecting the interest on our debt to increase to 5% in just a few years... that will cripple federal budgets... But, our democratic leadership seems incapable of thinking out that far...
It will be interesting to see what comes out of th... (show quote)


So, all that means, Blurry, is we gotta spend fast (& furious?) before the interest rates go up.
But he DID throw the "little people" a bone: Raise minimum wage to $9 so they can enter the middle class. So he'll "minimum wage" the lower class up to the middle class, and tax the upper class down to the middle class. I really hate all this class, class, class crap. When I was growing up (day before yesterday) we only had one class...American. Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end...

Reply
Feb 13, 2013 08:09:22   #
Penny MG Loc: Fresno, Texas
 
Danilo wrote:
Blurryeyed wrote:
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the SOTU address tonight, I am predicting that the president will call for new "investments" or spending as most of us know it, and suggest that it will be paid for in with new revenues and cuts already made....

Interesting in the CBO report they are projecting Obama's first sub trillion dollar deficit this year, but I don't think that the president will restrain himself, he will lobby for additional spending. What was also interesting in the CBO report is that they are projecting the interest on our debt to increase to 5% in just a few years... that will cripple federal budgets... But, our democratic leadership seems incapable of thinking out that far...
It will be interesting to see what comes out of th... (show quote)


So, all that means, Blurry, is we gotta spend fast (& furious?) before the interest rates go up.
But he DID throw the "little people" a bone: Raise minimum wage to $9 so they can enter the middle class. So he'll "minimum wage" the lower class up to the middle class, and tax the upper class down to the middle class. I really hate all this class, class, class crap. When I was growing up (day before yesterday) we only had one class...American. Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end...
quote=Blurryeyed It will be interesting to see wh... (show quote)


WE did think they would never end. Boy, were we wrong. I'm still trying to figure out why it is the government's job to subsidize those who DO NOT WANT TO WORK. If one party is so concerned about those who are not as fortunate as others why don't they do the "neighborly" thing and directly help those unfortunates with their own money out of their own pockets. It used to be neighbors and relatives helped but now its the governments job? And the lunacy continues.....

Reply
 
 
Feb 13, 2013 08:28:11   #
JBTaylor Loc: In hiding again
 
Danilo wrote:
Blurryeyed wrote:
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the SOTU address tonight, I am predicting that the president will call for new "investments" or spending as most of us know it, and suggest that it will be paid for in with new revenues and cuts already made....

Interesting in the CBO report they are projecting Obama's first sub trillion dollar deficit this year, but I don't think that the president will restrain himself, he will lobby for additional spending. What was also interesting in the CBO report is that they are projecting the interest on our debt to increase to 5% in just a few years... that will cripple federal budgets... But, our democratic leadership seems incapable of thinking out that far...
It will be interesting to see what comes out of th... (show quote)


So, all that means, Blurry, is we gotta spend fast (& furious?) before the interest rates go up.
But he DID throw the "little people" a bone: Raise minimum wage to $9 so they can enter the middle class. So he'll "minimum wage" the lower class up to the middle class, and tax the upper class down to the middle class. I really hate all this class, class, class crap. When I was growing up (day before yesterday) we only had one class...American. Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end...
quote=Blurryeyed It will be interesting to see wh... (show quote)


Another side effect of the minimum wage increase will be an increase in unemployment of the "little people" and increased difficulty in finding a job for those trying to find their first job.

The President got much applause for making unrealistic promises and we wonder why our politicians suck.

Reply
Feb 13, 2013 08:46:18   #
Penny MG Loc: Fresno, Texas
 
JBTaylor wrote:
Danilo wrote:
Blurryeyed wrote:
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the SOTU address tonight, I am predicting that the president will call for new "investments" or spending as most of us know it, and suggest that it will be paid for in with new revenues and cuts already made....

Interesting in the CBO report they are projecting Obama's first sub trillion dollar deficit this year, but I don't think that the president will restrain himself, he will lobby for additional spending. What was also interesting in the CBO report is that they are projecting the interest on our debt to increase to 5% in just a few years... that will cripple federal budgets... But, our democratic leadership seems incapable of thinking out that far...
It will be interesting to see what comes out of th... (show quote)


So, all that means, Blurry, is we gotta spend fast (& furious?) before the interest rates go up.
But he DID throw the "little people" a bone: Raise minimum wage to $9 so they can enter the middle class. So he'll "minimum wage" the lower class up to the middle class, and tax the upper class down to the middle class. I really hate all this class, class, class crap. When I was growing up (day before yesterday) we only had one class...American. Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end...
quote=Blurryeyed It will be interesting to see wh... (show quote)


Another side effect of the minimum wage increase will be an increase in unemployment of the "little people" and increased difficulty in finding a job for those trying to find their first job.

The President got much applause for making unrealistic promises and we wonder why our politicians suck.
quote=Danilo quote=Blurryeyed It will be interes... (show quote)


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Reply
Feb 13, 2013 09:37:54   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
I'm still trying to figure out why the government is subsidizing those who work such as those in the defense industries. Those in oil, pharmaceuticals, electronics, various manufacturers, housing, and banking etc.

I am still trying to figure out why there are people who think there are people who don't want to work!

I am still trying to figure out why people don't read and learn that Europe which has tried the austerity programs and are having no growth is a policy being advocated by folks such as Blurryeyed.

I see no problem with the national debt. We owe the vast majority of the debt to ourselves.

Who Owns the U.S. National Debt?
By Kimberly Amadeo, About.com Guide


It would take 160 billion $100-bills to pay off the U.S. debt.

Question: Who Owns the U.S. National Debt?
Answer: The U.S. debt is more than $16 trillion. The U.S. has been able to run up such a huge debt because it always has the ability to pay it off by auctioning off more Treasury notes.
However, there is a debt ceiling set by Congress. Whenever the debt approaches this ceiling, legislators raise concerns about the ability of the U.S. to pay back its debt. It's of special concern now that the debt-to-GDP ratio has passed 100%. This means that the U.S. debt is larger than its entire economy produces in a year. Even though it's still unlikely, those who own U.S. debt have become increasingly concerned that perhaps the U.S. will default on its debt.

Most of the news headlines focus on how much the U.S. owes China. And, in fact, China is the largest foreign owner of U.S. debt. However, the biggest single owner is ... you. Why? Because the single largest holder of national debt is the Social Security Trust Fund, aka your retirement money. Here's how it works.

The Debt Is in Two Categories

The U.S. Treasury manages the U.S. debt (among other things) through its Bureau of the Public Debt. The Bureau has broken out the debt into two main categories: Intragovernmental Holdings ($4.9 trillion) and Debt Held by the Public ($11.6 trillion).
Intragovernmental Holdings - Just under one-third of the Federal debt is owed to about 230 other Federal agencies. How does this happen? Some agencies, like the Social Security Trust Fund, take in more revenue from taxes than they need right now. Rather than stick this cash under a giant mattress, these agencies buy U.S. Treasuries with it.

Which agencies own the most Treasuries? Social Security, by a long shot. Here's the detailed breakdown:

Social Security (Social Security Trust Fund and Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund) - $2.72 trillion
Office of Personnel Management (Federal Employees Retirement, Life Insurance, Hospital Insurance Trust Funds, including Postal Service Fund) - $1.12 trillion
Dept. of Health and Human Services (Federal Supplementary Medical Insurance Trust Fund) - $69 billion
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation - $35 billion
Department of Transportation (Airport and Highway Trust Fund) - $20 billion
Department of the Treasury (Exchange Stabilization Fund) - $23 billion
Department of Labor (Unemployment Trust Fund) - $21 billion
Other Programs and Funds - $933 billion. (As of September 2012. Source: Treasury Bulletin, Monthly Treasury Statement, Table FD-3:Government Account Series)
Debt Held by the Public - Foreign governments and investors hold 48% of the nation's public debt. The next largest part (21%) is held by other governmental entities, like the Federal Reserve and state and local governments. Fifteen percent is held by mutual funds, private pension funds, savings bonds or individual Treasury notes. The rest (16%) is held by businesses, like banks, and insurance companies and a mish-mash of trusts, businesses and investors. Here's the breakout:
Foreign - $5.311 trillion
Federal Reserve - $1.66 trillion
State and Local Government, including their pension funds - $709.1 billion
Mutual Funds - $864.9 billion
Private Pension Funds - $605.2 billion
Banks - $305.2 billion
Insurance Companies - $259.1 billion
U.S. Savings Bonds - $184.7 billion
Other (individuals, government-sponsored enterprises, brokers and dealers, bank personal trusts and estates, corporate and non-corporate businesses, and other investors) - $1.14 trillion. (Federal Reserve as of Januray 2, 2013; All others as of June 2012. Source: Treasury Bulletin, Ownership of Federal Securities, Table OFS-2)
This debt is not only Treasury bills, notes, and bonds but also TIPS, Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series securities.
As you can see, if you add up debt held by Social Security, and all the retirement and pension funds, a large part of the U.S. Treasury debt (30%) is held in trust for people's retirements. If theoretically the U.S. were to default, foreign investors would be angry, but the greatest harm would befall the average U.S. citizen.

Why Does the Federal Reserve Own Treasury Debt?

As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve is in charge of the country's credit, so it really doesn't have a financial reason to own Treasury notes. So why did it double its holdings between 2007 and 2012? This is one way the Fed stimulated the economy to escape the grips of the 2009 recession. The Fed's purchases stoked demand for Treasuries, which kept interest rates low.
The Fed's been criticized for simply monetizing the debt. This means because the Fed can create credit out of thin air, which is like printing money. It's as if the Treasuries bought by the Fed didn't exist.However, once the economy recovers, the Fed can get reimbursed by Treasury and take the debt off its balance sheet.

What About Foreign Ownership of the Debt?

The breakout of foreign-held debt shows that China was the largest holder, at $1.161 trillion (as of October 2012, most recent data). Japan came in second, at $1.134 trillion. The oil exporting countries have been increasing their holdings, and have edged up to become #3 at at $266 billion. The Caribbean Banking Centers have also increased their holdings in recent years, and are now fourth, holding $258 billion. The Bureau of International Settlements has stated that the Caribbean centers, Luxembourg (at $139 billion) and Belgium ($133 billion) are probably fronts for oil-exporting countries and hedge funds that don't want to reveal their positions. Brazil is the fifth largest holder, at $255 billion. The next largest holders are Taiwan, Switzerland, Russia, Hong Kong and the United Kingdom, holding between $117-$201 billion each. (Source: Foreign Holding of U.S. Treasury Securities, December 17 2012; U.S. Treasury report ”Petrodollars and Global Imbalances”, February 2006)
China has been decreased its holdings from $1.2565 trillion in the last year, perhaps out of concern that the U.S. will default on its debt. China wants to keep the value of the dollar high. This makes its own currency, the yuan, relatively cheaper by comparison. That helps China's exports to the U.S. seem more affordable, which helps its economy grow. That's why, despite China's occasional threats to sell its holdings, it's happy to be America's biggest banker, and largest owner of U.S. debt. Article updated January 8, 2013

http://useconomy.about.com/od/monetarypolicy/f/Who-Owns-US-National-Debt.htm

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Feb 13, 2013 09:58:40   #
Ron K. Loc: Upstate NY.
 
Another thing that bothered me during the SOTU was Joe Biden behind the President, nodding his head like a little bobble-head doll every time the Pres. made something that resembled a point.

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Feb 13, 2013 12:05:48   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
ole sarg wrote:

I am still trying to figure out why people don't read and learn that Europe which has tried the austerity programs and are having no growth is a policy being advocated by folks such as Blurryeyed.

I see no problem with the national debt. We owe the vast majority of the debt to ourselves.



Europe did not simply try an austerity program, the European countries were forced to accept austerity as they had over extended their borrowing and arrived at a point to which they could not continue with the liberal dream of not paying for the government... This is the table that we are setting for our children and those who come behind us.

I fail to understand why it is that people like ol' Sarg think that it is just fine for the current generation to heap piles of unsustainable debt onto the backs of the generations which will follow us, when president Clinton left office the debt held by the public was 34.5% of GDP, now after 12 short years the debt held by the public is a whopping 73% of our GDP and if you count the intragovernmental holdings our debt has surpassed 100% of GDP... Are we not to stand up and take notice? Are people like Sarg really this naive? More and more we will feel the impact of the issuance of debt in rising prices in the things that we purchase daily as the federal government devalues our currency through the issuance of more and more debt. Already we are seeing the effects of this in our daily purchases of things like groceries and gasoline, why is it that our gas prices remain so high in the face of falling demand and an improved supply of gasoline? We will continue to feel the upward pricing pressure as long as the federal government continues to monetize its debt, it is a simple economic reality. The scariest part is that if we do not curb our appetite for federal debt, if we continue to look to the federal government to bailout every bad situation that our large corporations and state and local governments put themselves into then we will actually bankrupt our government and our country, our country's credit line is not without limits and with the image of a US economy and society in decline, and lets not fool ourselves, this is an image that not only many Americans see but an image that the rest of the world sees as well, our ability to extend that credit line lessens as we fail to deal with the economic realities of a government out of control. To be sure we will see more and more local and state governments looking to the federal government to bailout their critically underfunded public sector pension and health programs during our president's second term. The president is right about one thing, in many respects our infrastructure is failing, but what the president fails to understand is that if the government assumes responsibilities for anything and everything that happens in our society, there simply is not enough money for it to fulfill its primary charter. It is time for us to have an honest debate as to what the real limits of the federal government is! People like Ol Sarg see no limits to the federal government or its ability to borrow and see no ill effect on our economy or future generations from such accumulation of debt. Our president last night laid out his grand plan for several new spending initiatives, many of which sounded great, who would not want to see the wonderful things that the president claims we could do if we would only invest in his vision.... the reality is is that the president is already seeing fit to take the modest deficit reductions that occurred in the last rounds of tax increases and spending cuts that has lead the CBO to project the first deficit under a trillion dollars in the last five years and squander it away into new federal spending which as we know never lives up to the goals stated at inception. Worse, our president seems to fail to realize that at some point the bill does come due...

The debt held by the public currently is just under 12T dollars, the interest rate that our federal government paid on that debt averaged well under 2% in the last year and we paid in the neighborhood of $230 billion in interest on that debt... The fact of the matter is is that intergovernmental debt will be shrinking as a percentage of debt because the excess funding that these programs enjoyed are a thing of the past, for instance the Social Security program was partially funded for the last 2 years by the general operating fund because the expenditures of the program exceeded revenues... so now for the most part new debt is going directly to the Debt held by the public side of the ledger sheet. So if the president adds to the federal debt as he did in his first term then we can expect a federal debt held by the public to be in the $18T range... The CBO has not and can not score this because they have to score current law and programs, they can not allow for what the president and congress may or may not do... but the CBO has scored what future interest rates should look like, in 2017 the expected rate of interest on our national debt will rise to 5%, so what does this mean? All of the sudden the $230 billion expense line on the 2013 budget grows to something in the range of $900 Billion, and what will the American people receive for this $900 billion? Absolutely nothing! All we will gain is the residuals and ongoing commitments of the federal programs created by our current deficit spending, we will be leaving future generations with structural deficits that will only be over come by actual debt reductions which will require an austerity program much more severe than any being discussed today and in all probability at some points just as has occurred in Europe this will be a austerity will be forced on our prosperity by the economic realities of the National debt and our ability to continue to publicly fund it.

What does sarge's article mean to us? Well he states that the debt should not be a worry "We owe the vast majority of the debt to ourselves." I am not so sure that sarg is so sharp in math because later in the document that he posted for us to read, clearly less than 1/3 of the nations debt is intergovernmental debt and the CBO reports that number to be closer to 1/4 of the debt. Regardless, what is governmental debt and what does Sarges inference that we should not be worried about it because we owe it to ourselves mean? Well, it really means that things like the Social Security Trust fund are little more than a fallacy, they do not exist except as an accounting line on the federal budgets, they have no real assets other than the federal governments promise to repay the balance through future borrowing. Bottom line is that the money was long ago spent and if the truth be told as sarg does here it is not a real debt that we have to acknowledge, because it is no more than a worthless accounting gimmick. It is true that our actual debt is about 73% of GDP, but if you accept that figure then you have to totally accept that intergovernmental debt has no validity and is worthless other than it serves to account for where politicians stole the money from...

For those who believe that the Social Security Trust Fund is alive and well, maybe you should consider this article from the Daily Beast, hardly a right leaning source for news and opinion.

Quote:
Big news in pensions today: Silverdex, a major US-based conglomerate with fingers in just about every economic pie, from mining to solar cells, turns out to have been stuffing its main pension fund full of… it’s own corporate bonds. For decades. It’s still not clear how this happened without anyone noticing, but essentially the pensions that current workers have been counting on for thirty years turn out to be backed by nothing more solid than the company’s promise to pay. Amazingly, when confronted by reporters about this behavior, a representative declared that this was a big fuss over nothing.


John Rensten / Getty Images

“It is perfectly legal to invest a pension fund in corporate bonds. That is what we have done. These bonds are backed by the full faith and credit of Silverdex, and it is defamatory to suggest that they will not be paid.”

Silverdex is still pretty profitable after all these years, but “defamatory” seems absurd; obviously, it’s quite conceivable that the firm will run out of money, and the workers will be left with no jobs, no pensions, and no retirement. Though no charges have yet been filed, a congressional hearing is scheduled for next week, and observers expect high-level resignations from the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp, which regulates pensions, to follow.

I don’t really know how to say this, but sorry, I lied a little bit. I’m not talking about a private company at all, because of course, if a private company did this, it would be completely and totally illegal. Regulators would have shut this down decades ago and probably at least a few lower-level executives would have spent a little time in the pokey. Instead this is, of course, a description of how the United States Social Security “trust fund” works.

I translated it into the private sector in order to make a point about the absurdity of arguments over the trust fund. Now that the debt ceiling negotiations have come down to entitlement cuts, apparently we are back to arguing about whether the social security trust fund is “real”:

First things first: Social Security is funded via a payroll tax on all income up to $110,000. You pay 6.2 percent and your employer pays 6.2 percent. These numbers were set by the Social Security Reform Act of 1983, and for the next three decades payroll taxes provided more money than was needed to pay out benefits to retirees.

Now, suppose this surplus had been invested in corporate bonds. What exactly would that mean? It means that workers would be giving money to corporations, who would turn around and spend it. In return, the Social Security trust fund would receive bonds that represent promises to repay the money later out of the company’s cash flow. In effect, it gives workers a claim on the cash flows of the company at a later date in time. When that time comes, the company would have to pay up, which would make it less profitable. If the company was already unprofitable, it would make their deficit even worse.

If that’s what had happened, there would be no confusion about the trust fund. Everyone agrees that corporate bonds are real things, and that the corporations who sell them have an obligation to pay them back, even though it means less money for shareholder dividends.

Now let’s change a few words in this story. What actually happened is that the Social Security surplus was invested in treasury bonds. What does that mean? It means that workers gave money to the federal government, which turned around and spent it. In return, the Social Security trust fund received bonds that represented promises to repay the money later out of the federal government’s income tax receipts. In effect, it gave workers a claim on the income tax receipts of the government at a later date in time. When that time came, the federal government would have to pay up, which would make it less profitable. If the government was already running a deficit, it would make the deficit even worse.

I’m not sure why we spend so much time on a rather silly semantic argument. Is Santa Claus “real”? What about Falstaff or Mickey Mouse? True love and patriotism? The future and the past? They do not occupy physical space, and yet we are naming something that exists in our minds, that has real properties by common understanding. It is in that sense that any accounting standard exists, and in that sense, the Social Security Trust Fund is as real as next week.

And yet, this does matter, because people who vehemently proclaim that the Trust Fund is real usually pair this trivial semantic observation with a bunch of really misleading claims about the deficit, or various legal and moral entitlements, which supposedly proceed from the reality of the trust fund.

Let’s consider this analogy to corporate bonds more carefully, because reasoning by analogy from a US government trust fund stuffed full of US corporate bonds to a US government trust fund stuffed full of US government bonds is really popular. But if these two cases are actually parallel in the way that is implied, then a third case would also be parallel: a US corporate pension fund stuffed full of the bonds of that corporation. Call it the Silverdex Scenario.

Such a pension fund would, of course, be illegal. And for good reason: we recognize that it is not, in fact, a pension fund. It’s a promise by the corporation to pay its workers at some later date, not a funded pension plan. The company can call this anything they want—trust fund, pension plan, Ponzi scheme—but whatever we call it, we’d recognize it for what it is: a meaningless accounting fiction that does not in anyway enhance the security of worker retirements. And if, say, Verizon tried to fund its pension plan this way, liberals would hit the roof. Because we recognize that a pension fund full of third-party securities is not, in fact, very much like a pension fund full of securities issued by the same entity—corporate or government—that owes you the pension.

That’s not to say that liberals would believe that a pension fund thus funded is somehow a free pass for a company to stiff its workers. I think we’d all agree that as long as they are solvent, even a company that set up this lunatic pension plan is obliged to pay out what they’ve promised.

But they’re not obliged because they put some “bonds” in the “trust fund” and made a bunch of complicated entries on the balance sheet about all the “interest” they were paying to the “trust fund” before “lending” it back to the company. They’re obliged because they wrote a contract that said they would pay the workers pensions. If the value of the “bonds” in the kitty fell to zero, their obligation to the workers would not decrease by a single dollar.

Conversely, increasing the face value of the “bonds” to $5 trillion dollars would not make the workers one iota better off. It doesn’t give them any greater claim on the company’s funds than they had before.

All of which is to say that this “trust fund” doesn’t bring anything to the party; if the company can pay, they will, and if they can’t, the workers get bupkis. Which is why the government has very sensibly forbidden companies from funding their pension plans this way. Funding corporate pensions with company bonds leaves retirees with nothing but a claim on the future sales of that corporation, which is to say, exactly what they had before you implemented the “trust fund”. And funding social security with special, non-tradeable US bonds leaves beneficiaries with no more than the claim they already had on future tax revenues.

We force companies to put their pension funds in the bonds of other companies and governments, rather than their own, because it gives the workers an asset that will be worth something even if the company goes bust. Funding a pension plan this way means that workers are diversified: they get their paycheck from one company, their retirement savings from another. At least in theory, I mean; in practice, most pension funds are underfunded (and government funds worst of all). But at least the workers have some independent asset if their company goes bankrupt.

If the SSA stops writing checks, it will be because the US government is out of money. And if that happens, good luck waving those bonds in the air.

In fact, hypothetical Silverdex workers are better off than Americans with Social Security accounts in one key respect: they actually have a legal right to get paid. Not because there are “bonds” in their “trust fund” but because the company made a legally binding contract to pay them. If Silverdex tries to stiff them, a judge will seize money and hand it over to the pensioners; if the company goes bankrupt, the pensioners are probably going to be near the head of the line of unsecured creditors.

Trust fund afficionadoes imply that this is somehow also true of Social Security beneficiaries, but it’s not. This has been black-letter law for fifty years, ever since the Supreme Court ruled in Flemming v. Nestor that the government can take away your benefits any time it wants to. You have no legal rights to your Social Security benefits; you enjoy them at the pleasure of the US Congress.

The special-purpose bonds in the Social Security “trust fund” do not change this fundamental reality. Those bonds are owed to the Social Security Administration, not to individual beneficiaries, and you are not a shareholder of the Social Security administration. Since Flemming v. Nestor, you’re not even a creditor of the Social Security Administration. You’re just someone that they may or may not write a check to occasionally, as directed by Congress. Unlike a private company, Congress can decide at any time to cut benefits, and a judge will simply sigh and suggest you start hunting for sales on Fancy Feast.

To be sure, I do not think that it is likely that Congress will suddenly decide to massively slash benefits. But it’s not like the bonds in the trust fund are a mighty wall between us innocent taxpayers and the entitlement-gutting hordes of the United States House of Representatives. Social Security is going to keep cutting checks because doing otherwise would be really unpopular. It would be just as unpopular, and unlikely, if there were no trust fund. Like I said before, the bonds and the trust fund are not bringing anything to the party.

Nor do they confer any particular moral obligation, above and beyond the fact that we’ve promised, implicitly or explicitly, that we’ll help pay for retirement. (No, really: before you bring it up, it is not true that we set up the “trust fund” so that Baby Boomers could pre-fund their retirements, or as some sort of intergenerational swap deal where workers paid more tax earlier, and rich people were supposed to repay them later. According to the folks who were actually there, that’s a myth, and the current structure of the US social security finances is mostly an artifact of the hasty compromise that the Greenspan Commission slapped together at the last minute.)

So while liberals are right that it’s “real” in the sense that there is something that is called, by general agreement, “the Social Security trust fund”, conservatives are also right that it’s “not real”—unreal in the sense that it is not, as the other side keeps implying, anything like the usual kind of trust fund which has assets in it entitling you to get paid by someone else. The trust fund exists, but it’s about as useful as a chocolate teapot. It doesn’t make retirees more likely to get paid. It does not make it easier for the government to pay them. You can’t even cut it into pieces and use it for s'mores.
Big news in pensions today: Silverdex, a major US-... (show quote)

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Feb 13, 2013 12:10:28   #
proteus1 Loc: NEVADA
 
Blurryeyed wrote:
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the SOTU address tonight, I am predicting that the president will call for new "investments" or spending as most of us know it, and suggest that it will be paid for in with new revenues and cuts already made....

Interesting in the CBO report they are projecting Obama's first sub trillion dollar deficit this year, but I don't think that the president will restrain himself, he will lobby for additional spending. What was also interesting in the CBO report is that they are projecting the interest on our debt to increase to 5% in just a few years... that will cripple federal budgets... But, our democratic leadership seems incapable of thinking out that far...
It will be interesting to see what comes out of th... (show quote)


Yea, they can think out that far - - but they won't be in office...

WALT

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Feb 13, 2013 17:28:07   #
KW Conch Loc: USA
 
Ron K. wrote:
Another thing that bothered me during the SOTU was Joe Biden behind the President, nodding his head like a little bobble-head doll every time the Pres. made something that resembled a point.


And Boehner had on his typical scowling orange face.

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Feb 14, 2013 03:29:26   #
Hal81 Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
 
All they are doing is lowering the middle class to make the lower class think they are moving up. And all they are doing to our money is lowering the value of the dollar. When the goverment gives you somthing they always take more away. When they give to the lower class they take it from the middle class. And there is more of them than us. So it will not change. The inmates have taken over the instution. And more of our freedom is lost. But the trolls just cant see this with the wool pulled over their eyes. Buy the time they wake up out of their stooper it will be much too late.

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