marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

A friend of mine was in Vietnam for a two year stint. His first time out he was assigned to pick anything of value off of enemy troops they had killed such as rings, money, guns, knives, radios, personal effects, etc. His very first pick was when he reached into the pocket of a body and found a leather photo booklet with a family group portrait of the Vietnamese soldier in street clothes, his happy wife in a flowery dress, and their two children and other singular photos of his wife and children.

While my friend's fellow soldiers were all testosterone-pumped to "kill those f**kin' gooks" as fast as they could my friend was immediately slammed into the reality that these "enemy" boys were fellow human beings who were sent out by their government, away from their loved ones, the same way he was.

Some had loving wives who would weep endlessly when their husbands didn't come home. They all had mothers and fathers who would grieve terribly for their loss. They had children who would grow up fatherless and never again feel him pick them up and kiss them. Maybe the whole family would die in a bombing or village raid and burning by U.S. troops.

And for what? As he stood in the jungle of a foreign land he wondered why U.S. soldiers were ordered to murder people in the civil war of a third world country that could never threaten the U.S. in any way. Why was he "taking" their territory with death and destruction to everybody and everything that seemed to be a threat when he didn't belong there in the first place?

He put the photo booklet back in the soldier's uniform. From that point on, he pretended to cut the fingers off of the dead to take their rings but didn't. He pretended to take their personal effects but didn't. He looked at them as victims, equal to himself, of a big wrong that was perpetrated by military officers and politicians. He respected their remains unlike his buddies who weren't opposed to abuses and dismemberment of the bodies that were just plain sick. He still has nightmares about some of it 45 years later.

That photo booklet changed his outlook on war and patriotism. He served his two years as ordered, took menial jobs that helped him avoid shooting others when at all possible, and made it back. Just a few years later Nixon pulled the U.S. out, we lost the war and were humiliated as a military force, North Vietnam took over anyway, and all our soldiers AND their soldiers and innocents who died for 10 years because of the U.S. presence there did so for nothing. They died doing what their countries expected them to do but it had no benefit to anybody.

I remember hearing about the World War "no shoot" scenario many years ago. Then they went back, after even sharing some drink and talking to each other about personal life in their respective countries, and started killing each other again as ordered.

I'm not opposed to killing someone who is attacking me or my loved ones in my territory. That's why I own and carry handguns. But war is many times unjustified and merely politicians and military officers, not personally in danger hundreds or thousands of miles away, who are playing a really big game of chess with the lives of multiple thousands of pawns who are the victims of their games. They sit in air conditioning calculating whether the dead enemy to our dead count is an acceptable ratio or if a new strategy should be used. From the days of sticks and stones through muskets and swords, to remote-controlled drones dropping smart bombs... it continues.

St3v3M Loc: 35,000 feet

Stop being cavemen.

St3v3M Loc: 35,000 feet

Does this disprove anything I had to say?

pounder35 Loc: "Southeast of Disorder"

It doesn't disprove, it adds to it. State rights included that the states could keep slavery in effect but the Southern states were being levied with excess taxation on agricultural products. It was DC's way of saying "Do as we tell you not what you want". Well hell I can move to North Korea, China, Cuba, etc for that.
It's well documented about the Civil War causes. Slavery was an issue but not the only issue. As a student of American History and Western Civilization I have a little background in our Civil War and the history of slavery in the world. Slavery is a sad part of world history and US history and still goes on today.

TonyP Loc: New Zealand

Just a thought.

How about if slavery was kept and slave labour was a feature of the American Way today.

You might have had Australia or the UK (or Afghanistan :) ) invading those States today.

With the wisdom of hindsight, seems your Government was quite right to force the abolishment of slave labour.

Just saying :)

St3v3M Loc: 35,000 feet

Thank you and Happy Holidays to you and yours!

Aaronphoto

Sadly we still suffer from CAVEMAN MENTALITY only we use guns instead of clubs.

pounder35 Loc: "Southeast of Disorder"

I agree with ending slavery. It could have been done away with in a different way. The South fired the first shot but there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered animal.

pounder35 Loc: "Southeast of Disorder"

Same to you. Merry Christmas and we can disagree some more after the 1st. :thumbup:

TonyP Loc: New Zealand

Hope you guys have a fantastic Chrismas and I too look forward to your company here again next year. Been really nice and interesting swapping views.
:thumbup:

pounder35 Loc: "Southeast of Disorder"

Nothing like going at each other to put you in the Christmas spirit. :lol: It's all pretty much in fun and educational. Sometimes it hard to see things from another's perspective but I try to keep an open mind. This is a great group we just don't all agree on some things. Maybe the General Chit-Chat needs to be done away with. Nah. It's too much fun. :thumbup:

St3v3M Loc: 35,000 feet

If you don't have a voice then what good are you?
- Yes, you need to listen too...

Happy Holidays to you all!