How to Shoot in Manual Mode (Page 2): So where's the link to a reference? You got nothing, of course, and you're still wrong. Here's another reference that, if you know anything about...

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

selmslie wrote:

That statement contradicts itself and I doubt that anyone could make any sense out of it.

So where's the link to a reference? You got nothing, of course, and you're still wrong.

Here's another reference that, if you know anything about noise in digital cameras, you should recognize. Emil Martinec:

"...read noise goes down with ISO in electron equivalents: The reason for this decrease is the decreasing influence of downstream noise R1 with amplification; in referring the noise back to input (photon) equivalents, the downstream noise gets divided by the ISO gain, and hence becomes smaller and smaller at high ISO, while the upstream noise R0 didn't know about any amplification and remains constant in input-referred units. The read noise in electrons plateaus at high ISO because it stops receiving contributions from the downstream electronics."

https://homes.psd.uchicago.edu/~ejmartin/pix/20d/tests/noise/noise-p3a.html#:~:text=The%20read%20noise%20in%20electrons,largest%20one%20at%20low%20ISO.

That's two proofs that you're wrong and nothing from you. Provide a link to a supporting reference that refutes Richard Butler and Emil Martinec or you stay proven wrong.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

selmslie wrote:

You suggested that it was easier than using manual mode.

I never said or suggested any such thing. Stop putting words into my mouth. It's an ignorant thing to do.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Ysarex wrote:

So where's the link to a reference? You got nothing, of course, and you're still wrong.

Here's another reference that, if you know anything about noise in digital cameras, you should recognize. Emil Martinec:

"...read noise goes down with ISO in electron equivalents: ....

Absolute nonsense that proves you don't understand the topic.

You want a link? How about Read noise in DNs versus ISO setting from Photons to Photos. Pick any camera. You will see read noise increase as ISO increases. You will also see how a dual gain processor works.

I don't need to look on the internet for information I can measure myself. I have been able to replicate the P2P results with my own cameras. You don't have a clue how to accomplish this.

The blue line is the Black level, the read noise

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

selmslie wrote:

Absolute nonsense that proves you don't understand the topic.

You want a link? How about Read noise in DNs versus ISO setting from Photons to Photos.

Nope. I want a link to a reference that refutes what Richard Butler and Emil Martinec explained. Do you not understand them? I did not say and they do not say that read noise doesn't increase as ISO is raised. I said ISO typically suppresses [read] noise and they concur. In other words lighten the image without the action of ISO amplification and the noise would be worse. You got it wrong and you're still wrong.

Here's a third reference then from Spencer Cox:

"Does a High ISO Actually Decrease Noise?

Yes, technically, on many cameras, a higher ISO can decrease noise in the sense that the electronics — especially the analog amplifier — go through different processes that often contribute lower read noise to your photo. In other words, the electronics at high ISO settings may add less read noise to your images, obviously depending upon the camera." https://photographylife.com/iso-invariance-explained

Still waiting then for a reference that refutes Richard Butler, Emil Martinec and now Spencer Cox. You've still got nothing and you're still wrong.

Mac Loc: Pittsburgh, Philadelphia now Hernando Co. Fl.

Ysarex wrote:

Nope. I want a link to a reference that refutes wh... (show quote)

In my experience, as the ISO increases so does noise. When I shot film I used Ilford HP5 that had an ASA/ISO of 400. I used that because I liked the Grain (noise) that wasn’t there with lower ASA/ISO films. Now with digital When I want noise (grain) in a photo I increase the ISO to increase the noise. I do this especially when shooting in B&W (monochrome).
I hope this link helps you. https://www.picturecorrect.com/iso-and-noise-explained-for-photographers/

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Mac wrote:

In my experience, as the ISO increases so does noise.

Commonly yes. ISO correlates with noise. Correlation is not cause and it matters. The article you linked: "Higher ISO, however, also causes digital noise in your images,..." [my bold] The verb in that sentence is cause and that's wrong. People typically raise ISO when they need to reduce exposure. The reduced exposure causes the noise, not ISO.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Ysarex wrote:

"Does a High ISO Actually Decrease Noise?

Yes, technically, on many cameras, a higher ISO can decrease noise in the sense that the electronics — especially the analog amplifier — go through different processes that often contribute lower read noise to your photo. In other words, the electronics at high ISO settings may add less read noise to your images, obviously depending upon the camera."

I doubt that you understand that article from which you cherry picked a single statement, out of context. You overlooked the qualifications "on many cameras" and "depending upon the camera".

Those are not blanket statements that apply to all cameras. He did not cite a single example where they do and you can't either.

There are a lot of us here who are a lot smarter and better educated than you are. We are better qualified to decide whether you know what you are talking about. You don't. You are in over your head.

Mac Loc: Pittsburgh, Philadelphia now Hernando Co. Fl.

Ysarex wrote:

Commonly yes. ISO correlates with noise. Correlation is not cause and it matters. The article you linked: "Higher ISO, however, also causes digital noise in your images,..." [my bold] The verb in that sentence is cause and that's wrong. People typically raise ISO when they need to reduce exposure. The reduced exposure causes the noise, not ISO.

I think you are just nit-picking.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Ysarex wrote:

Commonly yes. ISO correlates with noise. Correlation is not cause and it matters. The article you linked: "Higher ISO, however, also causes digital noise in your images,..." [my bold] The verb in that sentence is cause and that's wrong. People typically raise ISO when they need to reduce exposure. The reduced exposure causes the noise, not ISO.

You don't get it at all.

I have already demonstrated with two cameras that higher ISO results in a higher minimum noise, the read noise.

Higher ISO indirectly increases noise because it allows us to use less exposure. Almost everyone accepts that distinction.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Mac wrote:

I think you are just nit-picking.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

selmslie wrote:

I doubt that you understand that article from which you cherry picked a single statement, out of context. You overlooked the qualifications "on many cameras" and "depending upon the camera".

The article from Richard Butler clarified that qualification. I guess you didn't understand.

Regardless I see no link to any kind of reference, you're still proven wrong.

Here's a fourth reference that proves you're wrong. Again Richard Butler:

"Adding amplification helps diminish the impact of any electronic noise added after the amplification step (downstream read noise), and boosts the output of the sensor to a level that’s well matched to the analogue to digital converter (ADC)." https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5426898916/ins-and-outs-of-iso-where-iso-gets-complex

That's four authoritative references that prove you're wrong. And you've still got nothing.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

selmslie wrote:

You don't get it at all.

I have already demonstrated with two cameras that higher ISO results in a higher minimum noise, the read noise.

Higher ISO indirectly increases noise because it allows us to use less exposure. Almost everyone accepts that distinction.

Still no reference to refute now the four authoritative references I've provided that prove you're wrong. Are you going to whine for four or five pages now and still be wrong? ISO typically suppresses [downstream] read noise. Provide a link to a reference that says otherwise or stay proven wrong.

Mac Loc: Pittsburgh, Philadelphia now Hernando Co. Fl.

Ysarex wrote:

Commonly yes. ISO correlates with noise. Correlation is not cause and it matters. The article you linked: "Higher ISO, however, also causes digital noise in your images,..." [my bold] The verb in that sentence is cause and that's wrong. People typically raise ISO when they need to reduce exposure. The reduced exposure causes the noise, not ISO.

I started this thread to help anyone who might want to try Manual Mode but was hesitant to start. You have muddied the waters with all your gobbledygook and have detoured the thread from its intended purpose. You called my post BS, but in my opinion everything you have posted in this thread is nothing more than pure BS. You have done a disservice to everyone who wants to learn or try something new. You have been combative and disrespectful in you posts. I think your only interest in this thread is to demonstrate that you know something, not to help anyone.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Mac wrote:

I think you are just nit-picking.

Well I don't. Cause and correlation are not the same thing and I think understanding what's causing something matters. I've had numerous cases in class with students who made the wrong choice with their cameras because they mistakenly believed that it was ISO that caused noise when it wasn't. A correct understanding would have allowed them to avoid making a mistake.

Mac Loc: Pittsburgh, Philadelphia now Hernando Co. Fl.

Ysarex wrote:

Well I don't. Cause and correlation are not the same thing and I think understanding what's causing something matters. I've had numerous cases in class with students who made the wrong choice with their cameras because they mistakenly believed that it was ISO that caused noise when it wasn't. A correct understanding would have allowed them to avoid making a mistake.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.