selmslie wrote:
ISO is separate from exposure. So is light value (LV), the brightness of the scene.
Below is another example. The light value of 15 represents the brightness of a daylight scene. It's what the meter (incident or reflective) would measure to determine the brightness of the scene brightness. At ISO 100, it also represents the exposure value (EV) needed to capture the image properly, assuming there is no ND filter over the lens.
That exposure value can be arrived at via any number of different aperture/shutter speed combinations.
Neither the ISO nor the light value are related to exposure. But to get a reasonable image the three values (ISO, aperture and shutter speed) must be compatible with the light value.
ISO is separate from exposure. So is light value ... (
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So not part of the equation, but included in the calculations.......
I didn't know all the exposure triangle graphics and relationships were wrong.
Not part of
THE exposure (EV/LV), but the exposure is based on it.
selmslie wrote:
It wasn't broken.
It is now.
I made my objection clear. I object to the myriad flood of Internet presentations, blogs and tutorials out there -- too many to count -- that misinform when they present the ET.
For example, raising the ISO increases the light sensitivity of the camera sensor. Here's one link but you should know I can provide heaps of them:
https://www.36exp.co.uk/topic/exposure-triangle/#:~:text=ISO%20is%20a%20setting%20thatDo you agree with that? Any problem telling that to a beginner or starting photo student?
When we get finished with this one you know there's another 1/2 dozen.
WDCash
Loc: Milford, Delaware, USA
CHG_CANON wrote:
Bill, wonderful capture, and I assume, processing. Yes, ISO-100 is a dream outside the scope of most photography situations. Also, different camera brands approach noise and ISO differently. I put together some posts in the past showing processed images at (then) rather high ISO values. As mentioned above, I also sought always to maximize the light reaching the sensor before addressing the ISO needed. Or, when at ISO-5000, I was at the 'max' for that camera and needed to address the aperture and shutter to get an image to then apply ISO-5000 against.
Shooting at high ISOs (ISO-5000)The 'bottom' of this 5000 link takes the reader to 3200 and 4000 examples too. Some of the images have been reprocessed over the years, breaking the UHH to Flickr link for image display. But, enough of the images remain 'as is' to demonstrate what is possible at ISO-3200, and above, in low-light. The full-exposure details are on the Flickr pages.
Bill, wonderful capture, and I assume, processing.... (
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Thanks very much.
And Yes, lots of processing.
So, if you believe ISO is a component of exposure, you cannot apply the standard, commonly accepted definition of exposure. What then, is your definition of exposure?
Longshadow wrote:
Hmmmmm...,
Exposure Triangle seems more definitive, relevant, and succinct for the subject matter.
Photographic Triangle is way too general...
Could also be Realist/Visionary/Documentary....
But hey, people love to have their own interpretations of <many> things.
How do you define exposure in photography?
R.G. wrote:
I think that might be overstating it a bit. Whatever the truth is, any misunderstandings can be easily rectified by teachers such as yourself.
I'll admit to a tendency for exaggeration. It's a bloody pain to have to devote class time to cleaning up that mess. Most frequently I've encountered students who learned from presentations about the ET that ISO causes noise. Not that ISO correlates with noise but that it right out causes it.
Here's how I would typically encounter that:
Me: These photos are all too dark -- they're underexposed.
Student: Yeah, I couldn't hand hold at any slower shutter speed and I didn't want to raise the ISO any higher.
Me: You already had the ISO at 1600, you needed to raise it higher.
Student: I didn't want the photos to have any more noise. I plan to work on them in PS.
Me: Why do you think you'd have more noise if you raised the ISO?
Student: ISO causes noise -- the higher it goes the more noise.
Me: Where'd you learn that?
Student: Youtube.
Me: Raising the ISO would have reduced the noise you have in these photos.
I can't tell you how many times....
R.G. wrote:
And the resulting image comes after the camera completes the process. All of the definitions of ISO connect the amount of captured light to the brightness of the final image. Putting it another way, ISO is the link that connects the captured light to the resulting image. If you want a correctly exposed image, ISO is one of the factors that you need to get right.
Yes, but that's qualified by if you want a correct lightness JPEG from the camera.
R.G. wrote:
I see no shortage of people who are happy to refer to ISO as an exposure variable - and that includes engineers, technicians, journalists (I'm sure the list goes on). If anybody is misunderstanding exposure and the role of ISO, it points to a lack of a very basic understanding of the subject. The answer would seem to be to provide a proper explanation of the subject.
Longshadow wrote:
And the difference is.......???
Still a variable relating to exposure.
It's not weighing turnips.
Cause versus correlation -- it can really matter sometimes.
CHG_CANON wrote:
I haven't read all the mudfight since earlier, but to your question about 'good exposure', in digital photography, that pertains to maximizing the light hitting the sensor. That is done in one of two ways, or a combination of the two: the duration of the shutter opening and the size of the aperture. Nothing about ISO is involved. ISO comes after the light hits the sensor.
Digital photographers should always seek the minimum shutterspeed needed for the composition and the widest aperture appropriate for the composition. Don't shoot at 1/2000 sec, when all you really need is 1/500 sec. Don't shoot at f/11 when the subject is covered perfectly by f/6.3. Artistic intent goes a long way in determining aperture and shutterspeed, but just blindly selecting values, outside of direct sunlight, lead to issues in digital photography. And the bottom line: maximize the light hitting the sensor to minimize the ISO 'gain' needed for the resulting image. That is the 'nutshell' of 'good exposure' in digital photography.
The triangle nonsense may be useful for the entry-level, or state-school coursework, but anyone with a firm understanding of digital photography and the underlying technology of how ISO is implemented in digital photography, they will worry about their shutterspeed and aperture. They understand the performance of their camera at every ISO setting, and will know the inflection point where the camera's noise performance goes from just fine to problematic. They will always seek to maximize the light hitting the sensor, for a given composition, to hold the ISO to the lowest necessary value.
The triangle implies the three points are equal. They are not. Shutterspeed and aperture are equal. ISO was born out back, not in the barn, but behind it.
I haven't read all the mudfight since earlier, but... (
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You say:
"And the bottom line: maximize the light hitting the sensor to minimize the ISO 'gain' needed for the resulting image. That is the 'nutshell' of 'good exposure' in digital photography."This comment gets my vote for the most sensible comment yet on this thread!
Ysarex wrote:
I made my objection clear. I object to the myriad flood of Internet presentations, blogs and tutorials out there -- too many to count -- that misinform when they present the ET.
As User ID would point out, misinformation is the risk you take in UHH threads.
srt101fan wrote:
How do you define exposure in photography?
A combination of shutter and aperture settings based on a particular ISO (setting) to get the desired effect.
How do you define it?
selmslie wrote:
As User ID would point out, misinformation is the risk you take in UHH threads.
And I take it since you objected to my post that you're a supporter of misinformation. That I understand.
If you want to reply, then
register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.