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Do you really need a full-frame camera?
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Feb 12, 2023 12:27:51   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
mikeroetex wrote:
Great photos. I jumped back in to photography as a hobby in 2004 after setting film aside for 25 years. I still have first Nikon D40 which I gave my wife when I "upgraded." Coincidentally, I took it out for spin recently (the battery actually charged up) and it worked great with its whopping 6mp.

I have since owned a D7100 (my first "serious" camera) but traded for a D7200 for better low light and deeper buffer. Then came the D500 with 10fps and a perfect buffer and everything I needed for sports/wildlife and astro with my new backup, a used D750. I could still be using that combo for life, but have now gone mirrorless and chose Nikon Z9 over Sony A1. And I'm fully ready to trade the Z9 fo a Z6iii orZ90 that's smaller and less bulky with a 33-45mp sensor, 20-30 fps and the continually improving AF.

I mention all this because photograhy is my hobby . I don't buy because of need, mainly because every other aspect of my life is based on need. I have a modest afforable home but could buy bigger. I drive a used truck, not a BMW. We have a used camper that I paid cash for. I haven't needed to buy dress shoes for 20 years and business attire is only replaced when threads are bare or the waistline demands a bigger size.

So do I go a little crazy buying the latest and greatest cameras and new lenses... sure. It's my treat to myself. I will probably quit buying when I fully retire in 2 years. But make no mistake, UHH has nothing to do with my purchase decisions. I was doing this before I knew UHH existed. Of course, my "hobby" then was golf and I could never resist a new driver!

P.S. I've only bought new twice in 19 years. The D40 and the Z9 + lenses. Thanks to MPB, ebay and Robert's Camera.
Great photos. I jumped back in to photography as ... (show quote)


Thank you Mike! I try always to get people to not buy new. Either something so bleeding edge, it's better to wait a bit. Or, it's too old to still pay a 'new price' premium when there are now plenty of 'refurb' or 'like new' used options to lower the price. My shoes get resoled a lot too.

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Feb 12, 2023 12:29:26   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
mikenolan wrote:
The images in the lead post demonstrate once again that the most important part of a camera is the person holding it.


Thanks Mike! Although I don't disagree, that's not the common UHH sentiment ...

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Feb 12, 2023 13:06:13   #
JohnR Loc: The Gates of Hell
 
Doesn't "seeing the difference" depend a great deal on the display you're viewing the images on? In 2006 you possibly had a "Full HD" screen for your 6MP shots whereas today you view on UHD - maybe? On my "Full HD" LG screen I see very very little difference between my 12MP Nikon D90 shots and my 24MP Nikon D5500 shots however on a 4K screen the difference is quite noticeable.

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Feb 12, 2023 13:23:57   #
mikenolan Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Thanks Mike! Although I don't disagree, that's not the common UHH sentiment ...


Yeah, many people just think "If I only had a better camera or that lens or ......".

I probably don't know how to utilize 90% of the capabilities of the gear I have now.

Now, there are areas where specific gear is required, macro focus stacking, for example. (I'm just getting started on in-studio macro work.)

I don't have the patience for outdoor photography of birds and animals in the wild, so that's not an area where I'm likely to fall victim to GAS.

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Feb 12, 2023 13:52:47   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
JohnR wrote:
Doesn't "seeing the difference" depend a great deal on the display you're viewing the images on? In 2006 you possibly had a "Full HD" screen for your 6MP shots whereas today you view on UHD - maybe? On my "Full HD" LG screen I see very very little difference between my 12MP Nikon D90 shots and my 24MP Nikon D5500 shots however on a 4K screen the difference is quite noticeable.


Yes, I agree monitor resolution is a potential aspect of our ability to "see" a difference, especially using larger screens, and even more so, larger prints.

But still, even today's 4K monitors cannot see the full un-cropped resolution of your 12MP D90. "4K" being a typical resolution of 3840x2160 or 8.3MP. The "4K" reference is the pixel "width" of the monitor, not the overall pixel resolution. Compared to my 1920x1200 screen (2.3MP), the increased level of detail should be obvious, more pixel images on more pixel resolution screens giving more viewable detail.

What also should be obvious, before zooming, is the level of detail in distant subjects from the higher pixel sensors. Some of the examples in this post provide examples, such as the details of the two views of the Wrigley clock tower (nearly identical), and then the buildings in the Chicago skyline (where the FF has more fine detail). I struggled to find similar 'digital' views of that perspective of Chicago skyline, as many of the candidate image compares were from film, an option that messes with the comparison due to the original film resolution and then the scanning.

Beyond the screen size is the resizing of the original images to better 'fit' these smaller screens. The two backs of the bee might be the best example that shows a sharper lens on a higher resolution camera yielding more detail on two resized images. The fine yellow hairs are at slightly different distances, but I consider the FF version to better capture the details.

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Feb 12, 2023 16:57:58   #
cwp3420
 
ecobin wrote:
Need versus want applies to most hobbies, and want always wins.


Agreed!

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Feb 12, 2023 17:12:22   #
bwana Loc: Bergen, Alberta, Canada
 
ecobin wrote:
Need versus want applies to most hobbies, and want always wins.



Applies to lot more than just cameras!

bwa

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Feb 12, 2023 22:37:06   #
DougS Loc: Central Arkansas
 
I keep two bodies for a particular reason. It greatly reduces dust getting inside the body, due to not changing from a wide angle (on one) to a zoom (on the other), every minute or two! And yes, when traveling, I travel with both.

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Feb 12, 2023 22:41:48   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
DougS wrote:
I keep two bodies for a particular reason. It greatly reduces dust getting inside the body, due to not changing from a wide angle (on one) to a zoom (on the other), every minute or two! And yes, when traveling, I travel with both.


I've mostly retired from two cameras, at least carrying in the field. I just pic the lens, or the body & lens, that best fits what I expect to find.

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Feb 12, 2023 23:04:32   #
DougS Loc: Central Arkansas
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
I've mostly retired from two cameras, at least carrying in the field. I just pic the lens, or the body & lens, that best fits what I expect to find.


I can certainly identify with the issues with carrying two cameras. I found that it's biggest benefit was having the "right" lens on the camera when needed (ugh, seemed like it was ALWAYS the opposite of what I needed/wanted (wide vs. zoom); and almost always it would be every other pict! I gave up!

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Feb 13, 2023 01:43:38   #
Boris77
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
There was a post about the EOS XTi recently, a camera that was my first DSLR. I purchased that 10MP Rebel body in Dec 2006, so I'm approaching 20 years in digital overall. To create this retrospective post, I reached into the LR catalog looking for similar images to ask the question: can you see the difference?

Wrigley Building by Paul Sager, on Flickr


Wrigley Building


I'm unsure if I have UHH to thank for the impetus to change from an XTi to an EOS 7D, before then changing again to the current EOS 5DIII. The following series of image pairs will tend to be at least 10 years apart. The two bees compare a 100mm macro with a 180mm macro.

Bee and flower


Coneflower visitor


The exposure details and lenses of all the images are available from Flickr, using the URL links that are the image titles. I couldn't find any images that used the same lens on both cameras, for similar images. The best I could find was similar subjects and views, in a landscape format.

Buckingham Fountain


Buckingham Fountain


If you "need" a new camera, there's always a question of: why? Maybe you need more resolution. Maybe you need more frames per second. Maybe you need more external controls. Maybe better noise performance? Maybe better Auto Focus performance? But, what if it's really just that you need a better lens? And therefore, maybe, you don't really need more pixels or more controls or more frames or NR or AF performance?

Chicago


Chicago Skyline - Willis Tower


I wanted to just compare a 10MP cropped sensor to a 22MP full-frame, but the sequence of agave, below, adds the wrinkle of a circa 1987 f/1.8 prime against a nearly as old film-era zoom and the newest IS enabled zoom. Even though all these images are down-sized to 2048-pixels on the wide side (and linked as 1600px), I think for most of the images, one can see the resolution differences of the two / three cameras.

United States Botanic Garden


DeGrazia Gallery in the Sun


Wesley Bolin Memorial Park


Of these final two images, I think the Rebel actually wins the 1 to 1. All the images in this post were processed in LR6. The XTi images are a mixture of JPEG files and RAW against the RAW files of the EOS 7D and 5DIII. The bottom image suffers a bit from the 2x extender added to the 500mm L prime. It looks good, but I think there's more details in the upclose of the XTi at 52mm than the more distant shot from the effective 700mm of the prime.

United States Botanic Garden


Swamp Rose Mallow


Hopefully, these examples cause some serious questions about: Is it the camera, the software, the photographer or the lens?

Remember, the longer you read UHH, the more expensive it gets. Try not to get caught up in the hype.
There was a post about the EOS XTi recently, a cam... (show quote)


No reason to expect a visual difference at the size viewed. My old 12mp Nikon D300 takes more pleasing (color) photographs than any other digital camera I have owned. I still use it for many personal photographs, but the (limited) camera features make it less practical for requested photo shoots.
Present day camera development is way past what most amateurs need. The mirror is just an unfortunate development that occurred along the way, and not worth replacing.
Boris

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Feb 13, 2023 04:59:21   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
There was a post about the EOS XTi recently, a camera that was my first DSLR. I purchased that 10MP Rebel body in Dec 2006, so I'm approaching 20 years in digital overall. To create this retrospective post, I reached into the LR catalog looking for similar images to ask the question: can you see the difference?

Wrigley Building by Paul Sager, on Flickr


Wrigley Building


I'm unsure if I have UHH to thank for the impetus to change from an XTi to an EOS 7D, before then changing again to the current EOS 5DIII. The following series of image pairs will tend to be at least 10 years apart. The two bees compare a 100mm macro with a 180mm macro.

Bee and flower


Coneflower visitor


The exposure details and lenses of all the images are available from Flickr, using the URL links that are the image titles. I couldn't find any images that used the same lens on both cameras, for similar images. The best I could find was similar subjects and views, in a landscape format.

Buckingham Fountain


Buckingham Fountain


If you "need" a new camera, there's always a question of: why? Maybe you need more resolution. Maybe you need more frames per second. Maybe you need more external controls. Maybe better noise performance? Maybe better Auto Focus performance? But, what if it's really just that you need a better lens? And therefore, maybe, you don't really need more pixels or more controls or more frames or NR or AF performance?

Chicago


Chicago Skyline - Willis Tower


I wanted to just compare a 10MP cropped sensor to a 22MP full-frame, but the sequence of agave, below, adds the wrinkle of a circa 1987 f/1.8 prime against a nearly as old film-era zoom and the newest IS enabled zoom. Even though all these images are down-sized to 2048-pixels on the wide side (and linked as 1600px), I think for most of the images, one can see the resolution differences of the two / three cameras.

United States Botanic Garden


DeGrazia Gallery in the Sun


Wesley Bolin Memorial Park


Of these final two images, I think the Rebel actually wins the 1 to 1. All the images in this post were processed in LR6. The XTi images are a mixture of JPEG files and RAW against the RAW files of the EOS 7D and 5DIII. The bottom image suffers a bit from the 2x extender added to the 500mm L prime. It looks good, but I think there's more details in the upclose of the XTi at 52mm than the more distant shot from the effective 700mm of the prime.

United States Botanic Garden


Swamp Rose Mallow


Hopefully, these examples cause some serious questions about: Is it the camera, the software, the photographer or the lens?

Remember, the longer you read UHH, the more expensive it gets. Try not to get caught up in the hype.
There was a post about the EOS XTi recently, a cam... (show quote)


It’s fun to play with a new camera

Reply
Feb 13, 2023 09:37:31   #
lmTrying Loc: WV Northern Panhandle
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
There was a post about the EOS XTi recently, a camera that was my first DSLR. I purchased that 10MP Rebel body in Dec 2006, so I'm approaching 20 years in digital overall. To create this retrospective post, I reached into the LR catalog looking for similar images to ask the question: can you see the difference?

Wrigley Building by Paul Sager, on Flickr


Wrigley Building


I'm unsure if I have UHH to thank for the impetus to change from an XTi to an EOS 7D, before then changing again to the current EOS 5DIII. The following series of image pairs will tend to be at least 10 years apart. The two bees compare a 100mm macro with a 180mm macro.

Bee and flower


Coneflower visitor


The exposure details and lenses of all the images are available from Flickr, using the URL links that are the image titles. I couldn't find any images that used the same lens on both cameras, for similar images. The best I could find was similar subjects and views, in a landscape format.

Buckingham Fountain


Buckingham Fountain


If you "need" a new camera, there's always a question of: why? Maybe you need more resolution. Maybe you need more frames per second. Maybe you need more external controls. Maybe better noise performance? Maybe better Auto Focus performance? But, what if it's really just that you need a better lens? And therefore, maybe, you don't really need more pixels or more controls or more frames or NR or AF performance?

Chicago


Chicago Skyline - Willis Tower


I wanted to just compare a 10MP cropped sensor to a 22MP full-frame, but the sequence of agave, below, adds the wrinkle of a circa 1987 f/1.8 prime against a nearly as old film-era zoom and the newest IS enabled zoom. Even though all these images are down-sized to 2048-pixels on the wide side (and linked as 1600px), I think for most of the images, one can see the resolution differences of the two / three cameras.

United States Botanic Garden


DeGrazia Gallery in the Sun


Wesley Bolin Memorial Park


Of these final two images, I think the Rebel actually wins the 1 to 1. All the images in this post were processed in LR6. The XTi images are a mixture of JPEG files and RAW against the RAW files of the EOS 7D and 5DIII. The bottom image suffers a bit from the 2x extender added to the 500mm L prime. It looks good, but I think there's more details in the upclose of the XTi at 52mm than the more distant shot from the effective 700mm of the prime.

United States Botanic Garden


Swamp Rose Mallow


Hopefully, these examples cause some serious questions about: Is it the camera, the software, the photographer or the lens?

Remember, the longer you read UHH, the more expensive it gets. Try not to get caught up in the hype.
There was a post about the EOS XTi recently, a cam... (show quote)


I've read this entire thread. The XSi was also my first DSLR, but not my first digital. Can I tell which camera took which photo in your examples? No. Do I care? Not really.

What I did notice was the light. Especially on the "same" three plants. I've been noticing the effects of light more and more, especially when studying Cany143's posted work. From what I can tell, it's not the camera body nor the lens that is responsible for capturing the "magic" light, even though that is what a camera and lens do. The magic light that truly makes an image is seen, recognized, and presented to the camera by the person standing behind the viewfinder.

When I bought my 12.2MP XSi I told myself I would upgrade at 24.4MP. Well a 20MP SX710HS came along to carry around Disney. Then I found it would do the close photography I desired. Then I bought a 24-105L lens. Wow. Yes, I finally bought a full frame mirrorless RP. The XSi focus problems are gone. But am I a better photographer? Hahahahahaha! No. My composition is still lacking, but improving. My ability to see a great photograph in front of me..... The ability to read ambient light is improving as well as knowing what time of day and weather conditions help to improve the light.

I like a lot of the new features of the RP. They sometimes make taking images easier and quicker. But they don't improve my skills.

And some of your other comments have made me understand your sarcasm that I busted you for earlier that I did not understand. Sometimes that lack of live voice inflection or facial expression is the difference between understanding and miss-understanding. I apologize.

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Feb 13, 2023 10:07:15   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
lmTrying wrote:
I've read this entire thread. The XSi was also my first DSLR, but not my first digital. Can I tell which camera took which photo in your examples? No. Do I care? Not really.

What I did notice was the light. Especially on the "same" three plants. I've been noticing the effects of light more and more, especially when studying Cany143's posted work. From what I can tell, it's not the camera body nor the lens that is responsible for capturing the "magic" light, even though that is what a camera and lens do. The magic light that truly makes an image is seen, recognized, and presented to the camera by the person standing behind the viewfinder.

When I bought my 12.2MP XSi I told myself I would upgrade at 24.4MP. Well a 20MP SX710HS came along to carry around Disney. Then I found it would do the close photography I desired. Then I bought a 24-105L lens. Wow. Yes, I finally bought a full frame mirrorless RP. The XSi focus problems are gone. But am I a better photographer? Hahahahahaha! No. My composition is still lacking, but improving. My ability to see a great photograph in front of me..... The ability to read ambient light is improving as well as knowing what time of day and weather conditions help to improve the light.

I like a lot of the new features of the RP. They sometimes make taking images easier and quicker. But they don't improve my skills.

And some of your other comments have made me understand your sarcasm that I busted you for earlier that I did not understand. Sometimes that lack of live voice inflection or facial expression is the difference between understanding and miss-understanding. I apologize.
I've read this entire thread. The XSi was also my ... (show quote)


Thanks lmTrying! For improving skills, I'd add practice. Analyze your images, seeking to identify where / what to address. If unsure, there's an entire UHH community ready to add both useful and worthless comments.

This bit of retrospection is somewhat regular here at the desk in Chicago, looking at the details images and images vs images. For example, I have very few 'from the rear' bees as my preferred angle is the bee coming toward the lens at eye-level. These images were shared more for the purpose of comparison than being a preferred result.

For the three agave, two are December shots in Arizona in different years where the light angle proved well timed. What I see in these images is a conscious effort at considering where to focus and how wide an aperture is needed to capture a useful depth of field.

For the multiple and various characters I play on UHH, it might not be just tone and facial expression that are needed, as some characters are fully immersed in the position presented, with goal of repeating the inner monolog of the reader as an affirmation of the photograph 'truth' being mocked.

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Feb 14, 2023 01:33:07   #
jaredjacobson
 
These pictures are great examples that in good light almost any camera will do. In poor light, every millimeter helps.

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