InfiniteISO Loc: The Carolinas, USA

It's a typical liberal response to see a "crisis" and then generate a true crisis "solving" the problem. They're not happy unless they invent ways to meddle that allow them to exercise power. They really shine at screwing with things they don't understand. They'll pull in some scientist who can't even keep a house plant alive or has only grown crops in a beaker to testify about a grand solution.

If the only food available at the market came from agricultural systems that threatened the environment, would you eat it or starve?

An agricultural system that has existed for decades is not an immediate crisis to be settled by politicians overnight by buying out and shutting down operations that are feeding the world. It sounds like the Dutch farm land won't grow anything anymore without fertilizer. That's pretty much going to be the status quo for farming operations that have been operating on the same land for years. That said, the system works and is feeding a large portion of Europe and since it's been working for years, it's likely to keep working if no one screws with it.

Remember that the politicians that are setting policy in the Netherlands will find a way to stuff their bellies. You can also bet that some of the land "retired" from agriculture will end up feathering their nests with some sweetheart development schemes.

Haenzel Loc: South Holland, The Netherlands

Perhaps you should read the thread.

You really have no clue what's going on in the world. Pointless to have a discussion with you...

Haenzel Loc: South Holland, The Netherlands

I'm all in for a sustainable agricultural system. The crisis hasn't been settled overnight. It's been a process of 40 years. During that period the problem has increased rather than solved. National politicians tried to keep it in place. Court has decided it needs to stop. 80% of production is for export. We are left behind with the problems....

InfiniteISO Loc: The Carolinas, USA

The Netherlands have always had an export and trade economy, that's why you guys learn so many languages. Are you willing to have your country give up that revenue? What will it do to the quality of life for everyone else to give up that farm income and take away the livelihood of those farmers? Farmland is never truly valued for it's future earning potential. I doubt farmers given a fair value for their land come out ahead in the long run. Farmers also buy or lease a lot of equipment. Those industries will get hurt as well. It will all cascade into disaster for your country.

Really this is a property rights issue masked by environmental concerns that are not more of a crisis today than they were 20 years ago. Ask Zimbabwe what happened when they un-farmed their land, LOL.

https://www.cato.org/economic-development-bulletin/how-loss-property-rights-caused-zimbabwes-collapse

Racmanaz Loc: Sunny Tucson!

Yes, always pointless to have discussions with Lefty imbeciles.

Wyantry Loc: SW Colorado

If information is going to be posted, it should at least be identified as being similar in scope.
Anything else is blatant disinformation.

Several sources (many Dutch) claim the Netherlands are the number two agricultural exporting country.

The problem is that is only true by falsely construing data.
SOURCE: https://humboldt.global/top-agricultural-exporters/

”Their agricultural “exports” of $94 billion are made up of 3 parts:
1) $61 billion worth of agricultural products,
2) $9 billion in agricultural material, knowledge and tech, as well as around
3) $24 billion worth of re-exports.”
Which brings the TOTAL to $94 billion.

If the materials, knowledge and technology as well as $24 billion in RE-EXPORTS is subtracted, the actual FOOD EXPORT totals $61 billion.. Which puts them further down any list(s).
~~~~~~~~~~

There are several sources that rate the Netherlands as further down on lists of agricultural exports

SOURCE: https://howlongtocook.org/tips/countries-export-most-food-products

“The Top Countries Exporting Food

“Based on data from the World Bank, these are the top 20 countries that export the most food products based on value measured in U.S. dollars:

1. United States: $89,719,182,630
2. Germany: $39,143,404,740
3. United Kingdom: $32,834,074,660
4. China: $31,656,304,900
5. Japan: $27,173,445,970
6. France: $27,139,176,830
7. Netherlands: $26,819,981,570
8. Canada: $23,787,571,660
9. Belgium: $17,693,060,460
10. Italy: $15,432,784,080
11. Russia: $14,634,336,170
12. Spain: $14,036,227,530”
~~~~~~~~~~~

SOURCE: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-american-food-giant-the-largest-exporter-of-food-in-the-world.html

Largest Food Exports By Country
Rank ……Country ……….Value of Food Exports (US Dollars, Thousands)
1 United States …………72,682,350
2 Germany …………..…. 34,628,801
3 United Kingdom ……. 29,540,219
4 China ……………………… 25,152,286
5 France ……………………. 24,114,558
6 Netherlands …………… 23,271,571
7 Japan ……………………… 21,870,882
8 Canada …………………… 21,803,449
9 Belgium ………………….. 15,742,035
10 Italy ………………………… 13,890,508
~~~~~~~~~~

SOURCE:
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS832US833&hl=en-US&sxsrf=ALiCzsbqLge3Re_8E1ovuy-myK8iqRipDw:1669858731657&q=Largest+agricultural+exporters&sa=

Largest agricultural exporters
1. USA
2. China
3. Canada
4. Germany
5. France
6. Brazil
7. India
8. Italy
9. Spain
10. Belgium
11. Netherlands
12. Nigeria
13. Peru
~~~~~~~~~~~

And as far as food production per capita, Netherlands is not even in top 20.
SOURCE: https://www.nationmaster.com/nmx/ranking/food-net-production-per-capita-index

Top Countries in Food Net Production Per Capita Index, US Dollars
01 Laos
02 Latvia
03 Ukraine
04 Lithuania
05 Paraguay
06 Albania
07 Cambodia
08 Sierra Leone
09 Brunei
10 Wallis and Futuna
11 Russia
12 Armenia
13 Estonia
14 Bulgaria
15 Suriname
16 Belarus
17 Haiti
18 Uzbekistan
19 Cameroon
20 Peru

scooter1 Loc: Yacolt, Wa.

You just can't give a guy a break can you? Pretty soon you'll drive all the liberal demonrats out and then who do we have to laugh at? Bet you didn't think of that.

scooter1 Loc: Yacolt, Wa.

That should put a cork in his pompous little nether region.

Haenzel Loc: South Holland, The Netherlands

I can present you other statics that show different figures but that's not my point. I don't want to brag about The Netherlands being the second largest exporter. My point is we're exploiting our land at the cost of the environment. Our country is awfully tiny, people are living very close to each other. We need more nature..The balance has been long gone and you can see it in decreasing tolerance..

FrumCA

What nonsense? Shouldn't we spend money on things that will actually help people? Like good water.

btbg

I still want to know what you would feel like and what you would do if the government took your job and your house instead of someone else.

You are supporting taking away the livelyhood, the way of life, and the property of farmers. Farming is a generational industry. What is the next generation supposed to do? And, how does this give you more nature?

You have claimed that the soil is dead. If that's true you aren't even going to be able to grow nature without adding nitrogen just like the farmers did. It is morally wrong to take land from legitimate property owners and strip them of their lives.

I repeat that the real danger to the planet is not c*****e c****e it is the totalitarianism that believes it's OK to take away a group's rights for the supposedly "greater good." C*****e c****e isn't even a threat. Man has always dealt with c*****e c****e and can continue to do so.

But, I have to ask, how exactly is destroying the lives of 3,000 farming families and any employees that they might have going to do anything to help with c*****e c****e? It's exactly the same as when the U.S. wants to destroy businesses in order to cut CO2 production to "save the environment." Of course, it doesn't do that as China is the largest producer of CO2 and is not only not cutting production they are increasing it.

The U.S. could go to zero CO2 emissions, which would of course destroy the country without having any significant impact on the world's CO2 emissions, just like the Netherlands can go to zero nitrogen usage without having a significant impact on the world's nitrogen use.

In addition you claim that if all the farms in the Netherlands that are slated for closure are closed it will not impact the food supply worldwide. But, in order to have a serious impact worldwide then other countries would have to do the same as the Netherlands. And, that would indeed lead to world hunger. You are right to worry about Croatia. Any disruption to the world's food supply potentially impacts everyone. Apparently you would rather see people go hungry and have a new park then feed the world and take care of people.

One last thing. Did it ever occur to you that the decreasing tolerance may have more to do with taking away people's way of life or forcing other's life choices on people then the lack of space? If someone was taking my way of life away I'm pretty certain that I would become intolerant. What do you think is causing the protests in your country? It's totalitarian government that is being protested, not a lack of space.

BBurns Loc: South Bay, California

One perspective.

Haenzel Loc: South Holland, The Netherlands

The problem I described has got nothing to do with c*****e c****e. Again, 40 years is enough time to change the way of farming. This hasn't been done by every farmer. Some did change and earn good money. Others still have the possibility to change. A huge part of the farmers kept investing heavily, thinking that what was decided years ago, wouldn't happen. That's plain stupid. Some younger farmers even started a new business although they knew the agricultural industry had to shrink.... Every industry needs to make changes in order to survive. No exception for the agricultural business.

If you're so afraid of food shortage, the best way forward is shrinking livestock. All the land used for growing corn for livestock can be used to feed humans. The nitrogen concentration will be decreased as well. Win - win situation. This is also part of change farmers could consider.

The problem that exists in The Netherlands (and Belgium) is non-existing in France, Germany and for example Poland. They've got plenty opportunity to expand their agricultural business. It's because the dense population and lack of space we're having issues. The Netherlands have claimed quite some land from the sea, but this is a pretty expensive way of solving current space issues...

btbg

You still aren't addressing how you would feel if someone took away your way of life and your livelihood. This is very much like the N**i's. First they come for the farmers, then who knows who they will come for next. If we do not stand up for individual property rights then we will no longer be free people.

Is that what you really want? Because that's what is happening. Government is taking away individual freedoms and rights and you are right there supporting it. Well, that's fine when it is something you don't like. Not so much when it is your freedoms that are being taken away.

As to cutting down meat production helping feed people that's just plain nuts. Where I live they figure about 1,000 acres per cow. They can't grow anything else on the property, it is essentially desert. So, no, cutting meat production will not help feed the world.

Wyantry Loc: SW Colorado

Presenting untrue statistics does nothing to “prove” the validity of your statements.
The Netherlands IS NOT the “second largest” producer and exporter of home-raised food-products.
That assertion may be easily disproven. And has been sufficiently debunked.
~~~~~

The greatest problem, one that very few are willing to even think about, is there are too many people and not sufficient land area. Until that is addressed, all other problems are actually moot.

Granted, the country is diminutive. Granted animal production takes up major areal and crop resources. Granted some soil may be overused, of low “cropability” or be unusable for desired agriculture or crop raising.

The thing is, those soil conditions could be alleviated with some effort and expense. This sort of soil augmentation was done in areas of the Amazon where the soils were of even worse productivity. The people of Amazonia developed a process that converted poor, highly acidic, low-nutrient content “dirt” into excellent, nutrient-rich, highly productive soil — called Terra Preta. AKA Amazonian Dark Earth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
https://www.soilfixer.co.uk/Amazonian-Dark-Earth-Making-it-quickly

NOT granted is that a government should under cover-of-law take specific land areas, essentially by FORCE from private individuals.

What many see is a governmental take-over of peoples livelihoods and way of life. Something that strikes to the core of our consideration of unfairness, undue interference by bureaucratic non-responsive government decree, destruction of livelihood(s), and condemnation without recompense.
This sort of governmental overreach and destruction of a ‘way-of-life’ strike a basic chord of disgust within the American psyche, and would be resisted by nearly any means were similar “reforms” to be instituted in this Republic.

Do not think for a moment that most American citizens would accept or condone such an unprecedented action.
For proof, I would offer what is t***spiring in the U.S. right now: the disagreements concerning C****-** responses (v******tions, masking, closures, &c.), the backlash to probably illegal forgiveness of student loans and dozens (if not thousands) of hostile reactions to what is considered undue and unsupportable governmental persecution and overreach.

What you ‘good-little-socialists’ wish to do is your business.

Do not ask us to consider it is “Right”.