WirtzWorld Loc: SE WI

This question was posed to me by LensCap during a previous discussion. You all are cordially invited to weigh in.

…..okay, I’ll start. Most of my models came to me through word of mouth. They had worked with friends or acquaintances who told them about or showed them my work and gave them my contact info, which for the greater part of my career consisted of email address or phone number. I still communicate via email because, well, I’m an email kind of a guy. Some I found on line, like OMP back in those days(I don’t even know if OMP still exists), or more likely ModelMayhem. Models like Princess Katia and Katlyn (from Seattle) and Holly (from Birmingham) and Peach all came to me from ModelMayhem. Girls like Autumn and Amanda among others were from OMP. But a lot of girls were referrals. I met Kasia for instance, through my son. She was in his circle of friends and saw some of my photos and asked him for an introduction. Heidi worked in the same small company as my brother and I met her at a bar I went to with him.

Mellisa, and some others, were girls I’d approach if I was attracted to them (not like that!) and just explain who and what I was. I’d give them a business card and tell them to contact me if they were interested in doing some modeling. I’d get a contact about 2 or 3 times for every 40 or 50 cards I handed out. Always a pleasant surprise.

Payment: even if I knew a girl personally, I’d always give them something. Like my studio rats for instance, I’d give them 40 or 50 dollars whenever they posed for me so they could get a pizza and drinks or a bag of weed. Whatever. Models from the internet always had a pay structure and I was happy to pay them, mostly 50 - 75,80 dollars per hour. These girls were trying to make a living in a very vulnerable way, so I didn’t mind helping them out. The payments I made always included them giving me a model release. This is extremely important as you can’t really use their images without it.

Some models paid me for portfolio filling. I usually charged them 50 dollars as a sitting fee and then the photos were negotiable depending on media. Prints were always more expensive than digital files, though there was editing to consider.

Amoreena is a different story. I met her through a relative of mine and we became very close while she was a young girl. I shot her and her sister for their senior yearbook and graduation photos. When she turned 18, I proposed a different kind of photo shoot and she thought about it for a few weeks. I was very surprised when she said she would like to do it, and we ended up shooting four sessions over about four and a half years

To finish my story, I guess I’d say that finding models was never really a problem for me. I believe that if you approach models with confidence and respect, you will have models to shoot. If you can’t find a model for a while, shoot something else, landscapes, macro or portraits for the sake of not being idle. At one time, I shot pet portraits, and I hated it, but I learned valuable lessons from that. Same with family portraits. Ugh, but they pay the studio rent.

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

Well, nearly 500 views and no replies. With this comment I will bump the thread back to life perhaps.

As for the point of the discussion, sorry but I can't really contribute... I have never done nude photography with models. My wife was a model in her teens, and we met at a social club; but that doesn't count, and I never took any nude photos of her. (Well, there was this one time when I was setting up the tripod for a family shot and she flashed her boobs at me. I was cranking the mechanical delay timer on my Pentax but managed to fire the shutter button when I saw her raise her top.)

WirtzWorld Loc: SE WI

Thanks John.

Bill Golden Loc: Briarcliff NY

I don't do nude photography but I do enjoy this section of UHH. Great story. I enjoyed hearing how you found your models.

Ava'sPapa Loc: Cheshire, Ct.

What Bill G. said.

Laylafan69 Loc: Paradise Island,Bahamas

I admire your carreer as a photographer. I'm sure you forget in 5 minutes more than I'll ever know in my lifetime about photography. I'd starve if I tried to make a go at just photography, but I love it and this forum too

chikid68 Loc: Tennesse USA

Very informative

Timmers Loc: San Antonio Texas.

I will add to this that WirtzWorld has opened as a subject. Though WirtzWorld comes to this from what appears to be the world of commercial photography, I came to 'figure' photography from the world of art. Not much happened with regards to figure work during my undergraduate collage time, but during my three years of studies in the MFA program at The University of Texas was quite different.

The real door opened to figure photography when I took the position of Chair of Photography and Video at the then Southwest Craft Center in San Antonio Texas. As Chair I seriously introduced the expansion of the photography program for studio photography with an emphasis for portraiture. With the head of the center support, I introduced figure photography into the studio venue.

A great friend Christi Cane introduced me to Model Mayhem which was just getting started. This became a door into the world of models and figure models.

Now, what everyone reading this wants to know is the real world of where to find models, specifically nude models. The reality of my experience has one dynamic twist that made it all so incredible simple. In the rather large city of San Antonio Texas the Craft Center is regarded as a sacred cow for the city. When my department approached the city's junior collage the doors were open wide. The director of student services saw to it that The Craft Center was given a standing for an employment slot to offer employment to students as nude models at our institution! Oddly enough, the photography department at SAC (the name of the Junior Collage) forbad any nude images made in their studios or darkrooms (this included baby pictures!). I can not emphasis this rather unusual condition enough.

In the studio program we paid models at $15 per hour, usual lasting two hours, but classes were thee hours long to the Craft Center issued check to the models as general contractors (plumbers, electricians, carpenters etc) for $45 per session. For a studio figure class we collected a lab fee to cover the model fees. I can say everyone was delighted to pay the fee and though we had some women photographers, almost all were males.

And of course, because the models were students they were always in a crises during the month for extra money. So of course I would issue bogus payments to models for classes they did not attend. It is the real world of student models and money. This of course lead to certain models doing 'pre-paid sessions for destitute studio participants (we did not use the term 'student' at our school). And there were to photographers with huge incomes who hired the women during private sessions. That created the studio rule, "The model is always right and the photographer was all ways wrong" in issues of any conflict (which where vary few).

So the women made money to pay their rent and food at a 'job' they came to really like. Which would lead to young women riving at the door wanting to do modeling.

Without future details, the questions that are in people minds (mostly and exclusively men reading this) is how do you get to work with nude models? The answers lie in some really basic bits of information. First and foremost is your reputation as a male and more as a human being. That part above about giving them money when they needed it helps to establish the reputation. There are other parts to this but in the end it is critical to have an impeccable reputation. One of the critical parts of this is 'always pay the model', no excuses, it's your reputation. To that, I do not know if WirtzWorld was in good standing, most likely he was, with the underground of models. The underground of models is a little known thing. Back in the heyday of Model Mayhem an underground network existed that was almost exclusively driven by models, they had a secret web location where they shared stories and vetted photographers and organizations as to "Who was cool, and who was fool and who was just plane sleazy and dangerous" I only found this out as Model Mayhem was waning. This is your reputation and it is everything.

The other source and truly one of the only good source for nude models is other women. Yes, they do talk among themselves. If you have a good reputation and the women like you then you will go far. This is the best advice that I can offer.

In this day, there is this bizarre notion in most men's heads about doing nude modeling. Digital lets you know rapidly when you are getting results. But old habits in men die hard, in this modern era it amazes me that I have to say this.

First, spend money on the model, not on more gear. What you have will get you there, no don't need more glass or a new camera, what you need is a competent model, so pay for one. Join Model Mayhem, it is free and you access an excellent resource. As you get better and move along, support (give it money). You say you want to work with a great model hat will help you along and not make fun of you and yet you are in the middle of no where? Here are three models right now that are at the top of the nude model market, MOSH, Liz Ashly, Kiera Grant, London Andrews. They are all on Model Mayhem (MOSH is the cute on the header for the site), all check MM and all travel the US year round, figure about $200 an hour. There is no model in the US that does not know these four ladies and with a node from them no model will turn you down and they will even network models to you.

Once you are established as a non-freak you can find local models, especially if on your MM account you have some powerhouse models, like the four that I have sited.

There are other notions that you can learn to help you get into figure modeling. It is a lot easier than most men think, all you need is some guidance and direction. Which is what this posting is actually all about.

Cristi Cane in a men's green sweater.


VADA being naughty!

(Download)

WirtzWorld Loc: SE WI

Great post Timmers.

The most important thing in this post is to be a good human. And this goes for every aspect of your life. Always act as though your being watched by your grandma. Don’t be cheap is second. Timmers is correct, PAY THE MODELS. I don’t think that I ever didn’t pay a model, except for the ones who hired me for portfolio stuffing. I only shot the shots they needed so it was more of a job for me. And yes, I even paid Amoreena even though we were very close friends. These girls are trying to get by. If a model is too expensive for you, find out in advance so there is no bad attitude after your session. In fact most models will want you to pay them up front. No problem, they will give you everything they signed up for. Don’t be an ass plug and ask them for hard core shots if that wasn’t discussed and agreed to in advance. And be respectful of these girls. They’re not broads or bitches or hoes or whatever. They are young ladies with feelings. If you screw or disrespect your model, good luck working with anyone else. Timmers is exactly right about how they talk to each other.

One more point he made is to join Model Mayhem. I’ve belonged to that site for like 20+ years. It’s a great resource.

Oh, and about my past in commercial photography: I only worked in someone else’s professional studio for a short time. 4-5 years I think. I then started my own studio - WirtzWorld Studio in Bay View, WI. I hope I wasn’t misleading in the past. I did go to college to learn the fundamentals and then studied under Joseph Kern Ford for many years. He taught me everything I know about studio lighting. I cultivated the artistic side of my life on my own. I should give a nod to Randers. Ron Anderson, who partnered with me during the last six or seven years of my studio career.

And there is my two extra cents worth.

Timmers Loc: San Antonio Texas.

Thanks WirtzWorld, and thank you for opening the door to this discussion. Loads of hits and few pieces of feed back. I think we can expand on this subject because there are readers who want to know more of the inside of this whole world of nude modeling and the women who are involved.

There is that BIG question that enters the mind of the male reader, that most obvious one, do you 'sleep' with models? There is a guiding principle that effects your reputation, that is, are you in it for sex or are you there for the image making. I can only speak for myself when I state categorically that I don't have sex with models. This is because I'm there to create art, make great images at the least. Have I been propositioned by models? You better bet you, and it opens a whole 'can of worms!'

Women are quite human, and they do get aroused, in fact it is a primary base of doing nude photography. The problem is that none of us wants to be turned down and women feel this deeply. So you find yourself in a mine field when it happens. So, I put down the camera and sit and explain my feelings. I never go to the obvious idiotic place of defending my actions by invoking another female as an excuse, that just complicates the whole thing horribly.

I will often take the scene down a notch with a bit of humor, saying that Frank Zappa really never meant that "He was only in it for the money". I tell them that of course there obvious points, like they are beautiful and sensual, also sexy and I find them quite erotic, obviously, or I would not be so smitten by there present state. I also explain that for me it is the typical one dimensional male thing, either sex or art, and obviously this was about art and creating images that are beyond the moment.

Now, there is more to all this than most men ever understand. Women are much more complex than moist men think. We make jokes about this as men but there is great truth in the jokes. One of the things that men seem to have trouble getting and most of the literature (Like Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus as example) is really not vary helpful. Men live in the world of black and white, or call it yes and no. In addition, men have lines. The lines are not, no NEVER to be crossed. This means they will adhere to their position in a steadfast manner. Funny thing is women not only know this, they understand it perfectly. And women know that they, a woman can create the opertunity for a man they are close to (love) to move a line that they would never cross. No, that man will never cross that line but a woman can get him to move that line and that is an absolute recognized by all men. Women that are close to a man can move any line, it is how they operate.

The secret to women is ever so simple, they live in the world of perhaps. Women can and will suspend judgment on most anything. It is not that they don't have the absolute of yes and no, they do. The only great truth about all women is babies, all women (with few exceptions, weather they 'like' babies or not) are absolute about babies, children and the 'family'. It comes from their reproductive structure. When it comes to babies, women will not linger in 'perhaps', it is about being pregnancy (either they are or they are not, even when they think they are and until verified, bit the absolute is 'are you pregnant?').

So back to this state called 'perhaps'. This is the key to dealing with all women. They live in the state of perhaps, no decision has been made, they are simply opening the possibility for a change from perhaps to yes or no. Getting out of the involvement of sex is to understand that they are still in a state of perhaps and are telling you that they will change to yes. Your job is to speak to the fact that you would rather stay in the realm of perhaps. This is their normal state and they will remain there, at least for a while.

This is ever so critical to understand about the subject of your photographic adventure. Women are nude with you and are playing with the ig game of perhaps. It is up to you to be mindful of this and help them remain the fantasy of perhaps. That is where the work gets done and where the great pleasures of nude photography lies.

I hope this will expand on this discussion and get more participants involved. There are obviously men on here who have worked in this area and they have stories to tell. Please don't just lurk, add to the dialogue, tell your story, it can add so much to the knowledge.

Here you go, that image of Cristi Cane might just shed some interesting views as to this, so I will add more of the back story. Here again is the image of Cristi so you can view the image easily. This image has captured the interest of both men and women alike. The session began with Cristi and she found the green men's pull over and decided to do some images in it. I always follow what women are trying out and especially in Cristi's approach to modeling. She like most women have a deeply felt understanding of the erotic. With Cristi it was easy as she was a Scorpio, they really are the best model along with Taurus women, but then I am a Scorpio so that will mostly work with me.

So Cristi is modeling in the green sweater and her cell goes off, she glances at it and then gives me a certain look, I said to answer the phone. She explains that it is business. Yes, Cristi was an escort and this was a trick calling. She explains that she is modeling and that she could call back. The conversation goes a bit longer and she ends the call, tells me he wants to hook up when I'm done. I ask if he understands that you are a model doing a shoot. She tells me he doen't believe her, so idiot Tim asks if I can shoot her cell phone image and that she should send it to him. She gives me that cute smile, picks up the phone and shows me how to do a photo (I'm a pathetic idiot when it comes to modern technology). This amuses Cristi immensely, she tells me that I have my finger covering the lens and then shows me how to hold the camera. Three tries later she has the image much like what you see, a little cockeyed but with her lovely yoni showing. She sends the image.

The phone rings and Cristi answers.

Yes, that is me and the photographer thins this is fun so he did this cell phone photo to send it to you because I told him you did not believe I was a model.

At that point I took the phone from Cristi and explained that yes Cristi was a pro model (which she was) and has been modeling for quite some time and that he should be honored to take her on a date, she doesn't much date and is busy modeling a lot. So he should be really nice to Cristi and consider this quite an honor. He ask and I told him that she did not care if he shared the picture with his buddies, but to treat her as the lady she is, then I gave her the phone back and she told him she would call when her shoot was done, then turned the phone off!

She looked at me and asked if I understood that he was a trick? I said yes, but among men he should be in a fantasy world about getting into her drawers even if for money and that the photographer would not. She smiled and I said that this would be good advertising, the ol' 'word of mouth' sort of thing.

Cristi modeling and doing phone sex.


Second call from guy.

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

OK, this thread is turning from "how I met my models" toward "how to behave when shooting nudes." Tim has opened the door to the male (and female) psyche and has addressed some of what may be in the minds of male readers.

But there are a few questions that have always been on my mind that have not been addressed, so I will ask... on behalf of many others, I am sure (i.e., "asking for a friend"). They may sound schoolboyish, but I am certain at least some are on the minds of even the old geezers here.

Do you, or did you, get aroused when doing the shoot (especially if/when YOU also had to get nude)?
Does shooting nudes become "clinical" (like I expect a gynaecological exam is for doctors)?
After working with and getting very familiar with one model for a long time, does a new model rekindle anything (i.e., give you a "lift")?
Are your "emotions" cyclical, as implied in my previous question, after a dry spell of not shooting nudes for a long time and then getting into it again (is it like riding a bicycle)?
Do you mostly work alone or do you have assistants in the room (I know there are some shoots organized as workshops for photographers; but ignore those)?

Further on the last question, I remember seeing some shots in Playboy that showed the photographers at work during a photo session. The room was full of people preparing the set, attending to makeup on the model, adjusting the lights, etc. The image that sticks in my mind was a model reclining with many bits of paper stuck to, or sitting on, her body. The papers were clippings from a magazine, and the photographer used the printing to check focus/DOF.

DickC Loc: NE Washington state

I did lots of B&W with my ex-wife (now deceased) and a few models in Denver and Tulsa, always paid them for posing.

Laylafan69 Loc: Paradise Island,Bahamas

I heard there were some beautiful girls down in Tulsa DickC

DickC Loc: NE Washington state

Yes, I worked there for NorthAmerican as a contract engineer, had lots of girls, some of them would pose nude for me. I had just bought my first Nikon, FTN, and was trying it out, must have had 50 rolls of film when I got back to Denver and my darkroom! Tulsa had some beauties, hated to leave!!

newsguygeorge Loc: Victoria, Texas

I got to do one shoot with Tim and Kat and learned a lot from it. Circumstances prevented me from continuing to explore nude photography, something Tim understood when my plans for continuing ran aground. Tim works with several models and there are I couple of them, in addition to Kat, with whom I would have liked to work.

I also wanted to learn more about lighting from Tim. And, I had visions of continuing making photographs in that and other genres applying the knowledge and using Tim’s well-equipped studio.

Tim has taken a lot of unjustified guff and on this section of the Hog. I’m not talking about legitimate questions or comments about his posts; I mean the prudes who tsk-tsk — and do so selectively, I might add.

As for how I react to nude women — I find them exciting in all senses of the word. I also find them beautiful in all senses of the word. In my younger days, I lived in Colorado and spent a lot of time skiing. It was a hard-to-describe feeling, but the best I can come up with is that I was in a bubble and there was nothing else around. I was fully present, in the moment. I don’t remember any other time I felt so in the moment and present as when I did the shoot with Tim and Kat.