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Jul 5, 2021 09:06:22   #
pendennis
 
TheShoe wrote:
It was possible to turn the M-14 into full-auto by "wearing that part down" with a file. That was still possible in 1968, toward the end of service for that rifle.


M-1 Garands were also tampered with in order to turn them into "full auto". However, the Garand mechanism is timed for semiautomatic fire, and usually jammed after 4-5 rounds. The M-14 is timed to support full auto fire, and until the mid-60's, most had a selector switch. Filing down the sear was frowned upon very highly, and the Gunner's Mates would report those who tampered with the mechanism. However, even the M-14E-2 was nearly impossible to control on full auto, even with the bipod and modified stock; it was "advertised" as the replacement for the Browning BAR.

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Jul 5, 2021 11:29:38   #
LestheK
 
That's the way I carry too. I'm a lefty and have a hard time getting to the safety.

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Jul 5, 2021 16:38:42   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
TheShoe wrote:
It was possible to turn the M-14 into full-auto by "wearing that part down" with a file. That was still possible in 1968, toward the end of service for that rifle.


But that makes it full-auto only, besides the selector is a pop on - pop off part that requires minimal tools and skills.

The M-14 is still used for some purposes, a marksman version, an enhanced long range version with bipod etc. that in some units, esp. in Afghanistan with long range fire fights being common, was issued one per squad. (Because the 5.56 NATO is not a great long range round.)

My issue weapon the whole time I was in the Army was the M-14. When my company (a HQ unit) was training to ship out to Nam the CO made the decision that any officer* or any NCO E-6 or above could have a selector if wanted. For the rest of the company only the top 10 qualifying shots would get selectors. I was #2 behind an 18 yo kid from the Ozarks who grew up very poor and from about 8 was hunting game for the cooking pot. And I wore/wear glasses like Coke bottles. One of our NCOs who had been on the Army Marksmanship Team taught those of us with the selectors how to control the M-14 on full-auto. From the prone or foxhole position wrap the sling around your supporting arm and then lean forward using your whole body weight to hold the weapon down and fire in 3 round bursts. Some of us managed to get hold of some clip on bipods meant for the M-16 and those made it even easier to control when prone, foxhole or firing over a wall etc. where you could rest the bipod. But since we were the 10 best shots in the company we were told "We want you acting as sharpshooters on semi-auto. Save the full-auto for Charlie is in the wire at 10 meters."

*HQ unit for a support Group, we were about 25% officers of just under 150 personnel. During field training we were organized with one officer per platoon and all the extras became a light platoon of nothing but officers, commanded by our Group XO, a LtCol with our Group E-9/Sgt Major acting as his platoon Sgt. And yes, that meant during field exercises he was bossing around officers up to Major in that platoon. Our Group CO, a full Col, acted as the company CO with the Captain who was the company CO acting as his XO. And we had so many senior NCOs that fire team leaders were E-5 & E-6 while squad leaders were E-7s and the platoon Sgts E-8s.

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Jul 5, 2021 16:59:52   #
pendennis
 
The Seabees in Viet Nam were issued M-14's until ca. 1970. When I got off active duty in the Navy, I stayed in the Navy Reserve for several years, and during that time, I used an M-14, sans selector switch, for National Match competition at Camp Perry. Our rifles were supplied by the USMC Reserve, who occupied the same building we did. They had converted to M-16's, but had 20, or so, still in the armory. I like the M-14 better, especially at the longer match distances. Most had barrels with excessive muzzle wear, and/or excessive head space problems. However, we could get them rebuilt by the Navy Gunner's Mates, or the Marine armorers at the competition. The first year mine got a new barrel and trigger group, then later on a rebuilt gas system. We used those until 1974, when the Marines had to return all M-14's to the central armories. I was issued a "new" M-16 A2, but it just wasn't the rifle the M-14 was.

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Jul 5, 2021 18:38:28   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Accidents happen every day, and you just have to take them in stride. It's good he had that permit. We can't just let any idiots carry guns around. Maybe his wife will get a gun now.


If his wife can shoot back, maybe he will be a bit more careful next time.

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Jul 5, 2021 18:47:34   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
robertjerl wrote:
For 10 years I worked weekends and summers for a friend who owned three Gun and Police Gear shops. I even got rated as an assistant instructor and Glock Armorer.
We had an event locally where a late teen type had a gun go off in his backpack in class he had his hand in the back pack and dropped it on the floor as it went off - his court defense was it went off when the pack hit the floor and the other students in the room were divided (as normal) on if it fired before or after it hit the floor.
A couple of the local cops and someone from the DA's office came to the shop to get info and advice before the trial. At the time my friend had one of the same model revolver in stock that was so beat up we were going to strip it for parts to sell to a gunsmith and melt the rest.
So he put blanks in the gun and then we proceeded to drop, throw, kick etc. the gun around, both with the hammer cocked and un-cocked. We kept that up for almost 5 minutes including a circle of 4 guys kicking the cocked gun back and forth across a concrete floor for almost 2 minutes - sort of "revolver soccer". We never got it to go off "by itself".

A week later one of the cops came back in and told us that after he and his partner + the guy from the DA testified to what we did without getting it to go off the kid broke down and confessed: 1. he reached in the back pack and cocked the gun 2. he gripped it with his finger on the trigger intending to pull it out to scare someone "as a joke" 3. as he pulled on it the gun caught on something inside the backpack so he jerked harder - that was when the gun went off because he had his finger on the trigger. And the idiot also said he forgot he had loaded the gun then forgot to unload it when he put it in the backpack for his planned "joke". The judge provided a punch line for his joke - one he was not very happy with.

I know of one type of gun (a semi-auto military rifle) that has a part that when worn badly and slammed hard on something butt or muzzle first will go off. It was the early production runs of that rifle, they corrected the problem. A few models of semi-auto pistols with extremely worn down sears can fire when something hits the cocked hammer very hard. But it is rare and then only in guns that are not inspected or cared for and the sears replaced when that badly worn.
At the shop we once got a high end 22 target pistol from a police confiscation auction* that had deliberately and very carefully had the sear filed down and a lighter than spec recoil spring put in so that when fired it went full auto. Everyone in the shop and about 1/2 dozen local cops came in to play with it in our bullet trap before our gunsmith replaced the two parts. I tried it, with 22 shorts it just sort of vibrated as it fired (it was a "heavy" barrel target model) and kept all the rounds on target at 5 yards. And it emptied the 10 round magazine in just over one second. After fixing it so it was legal again a part timer at the shop bought it and then proceeded to win some competitions at the local gun club.

*The department it was purchased from said the guy they took it from was supposedly a hitman for a local drug gang. But they only got him on felon in possession and possession of an automatic weapon. No known hits/bodies shot with it had ever been found. But the two other charges got him 10-20 years and the state judge ruled they would be served after the Feds were done with him. The Feds tried and convicted him on the same two charges and they also gave him 10-20 Federal time. I doubt he got any time off for good behavior at either prison so he would have done a total of 40 years.
For 10 years I worked weekends and summers for a f... (show quote)


There are numerous incidents where Remington 700 actions in various calibers have fired as the safety is released. I think it's like the exploding Chevrolet pickups of some years back and the exploding Ford Pintos. The mfr decided it was cheaper to deal with the occasional lawsuit than foot the bill for a recall and rectification of the issues. I read somewhere that to repair the 700s would cost about a dollar in parts, but with the millions of that particular rifle sold since it became available in 1962 that's a bunch of dollars, not to mention the cost of shipping to and from the factory.

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Jul 5, 2021 18:59:21   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
ad9mac wrote:
Sadly, the ever popular Glock has neither. If one is in the chamber it's hot to go.
There are a number of makes that duplicate the Glock style function now.
Carry it in a pocket/purse sans holster and something snags the trigger( keys, eyebrow pencil, finger) and BOOM.


The mushy, long and relatively stiff trigger pull of the Glock is adequate safety for anyone but a complete moron. Every one I've ever handled required serious intent to fire a round.

By the way, John Browning, probably the most prolific and talented gun maker ever designed the M-1911 action to be carried cocked and locked. For neophytes that means with the hammer back in firing position, the thumb safety engaged and a round in the chamber. I'm not smart enough to think of a better procedure than the man who designed the weapon. My Combat Commander has never been without a round in the chamber since I got it in 1972 except when being cleaned.

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Jul 5, 2021 19:24:26   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
scooter1 wrote:
With a colt 1911 the hammer should always be in the half cocked for safety. With the hammer all the way down a drop that caused the hammer to be struck could cause it to fire. I've got a vintage colt 1911 and a springfield 1911 and both operate the same.


While you are right that the inertial firing pin can possibly be propelled forward with enough force to fie a round in the chamber, that misfortune almost always requires the pistol to be strike a hard object barrel first. You are not so correct about the half cock position. Browning designed the action to be carried cocked (with the hammer back) and locked (with the safety engaged) And that's the safest way to carry it. People sometimes gasp if the get a glimpse of your cocked pistol but they'll get over it.

If you don't believe me about the half cock position not being safe for carry, here is a link to a pdf copy of the Colt manual where they explain why:

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/media.connecteddatasolutions.com/downloads/government+model+mkiv+series+70+model+o.pdf

Check page 16. And be safe y'all.

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Jul 5, 2021 19:25:09   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
Curmudgeon wrote:
Everyone should have the right to carry. Most who do carry shouldn't


Have to agree.

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Jul 5, 2021 19:29:53   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
robertjerl wrote:
Hmmm, lets see? Oh yeah, Dec 1966 to Jan 1969 at Camp Granite, Qui Nhon, Binh Dinh Province, Republic of Vietnam.
And at one time or another I carried a 1911, M-2 Carbine or my M-14 locked and loaded (safety on) almost all of the time. Some places we cleared the weapon upon entry but reloaded upon leaving. And in that time not one single accidental or negligent discharge in a company of 125 personnel.

It is called training and discipline. + a few brain cells that know each other


Well stated. I toted both the M-1911 and the M-14 during my high school graduation trip to that place.

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Jul 5, 2021 19:32:45   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
LestheK wrote:
That's the way I carry too. I'm a lefty and have a hard time getting to the safety.


You can have an ambidextrous safety lever installed for a fairly moderate price.

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Jul 5, 2021 19:46:08   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
robertjerl wrote:
But that makes it full-auto only, besides the selector is a pop on - pop off part that requires minimal tools and skills.

The M-14 is still used for some purposes, a marksman version, an enhanced long range version with bipod etc. that in some units, esp. in Afghanistan with long range fire fights being common, was issued one per squad. (Because the 5.56 NATO is not a great long range round.)

My issue weapon the whole time I was in the Army was the M-14. When my company (a HQ unit) was training to ship out to Nam the CO made the decision that any officer* or any NCO E-6 or above could have a selector if wanted. For the rest of the company only the top 10 qualifying shots would get selectors. I was #2 behind an 18 yo kid from the Ozarks who grew up very poor and from about 8 was hunting game for the cooking pot. And I wore/wear glasses like Coke bottles. One of our NCOs who had been on the Army Marksmanship Team taught those of us with the selectors how to control the M-14 on full-auto. From the prone or foxhole position wrap the sling around your supporting arm and then lean forward using your whole body weight to hold the weapon down and fire in 3 round bursts. Some of us managed to get hold of some clip on bipods meant for the M-16 and those made it even easier to control when prone, foxhole or firing over a wall etc. where you could rest the bipod. But since we were the 10 best shots in the company we were told "We want you acting as sharpshooters on semi-auto. Save the full-auto for Charlie is in the wire at 10 meters."

*HQ unit for a support Group, we were about 25% officers of just under 150 personnel. During field training we were organized with one officer per platoon and all the extras became a light platoon of nothing but officers, commanded by our Group XO, a LtCol with our Group E-9/Sgt Major acting as his platoon Sgt. And yes, that meant during field exercises he was bossing around officers up to Major in that platoon. Our Group CO, a full Col, acted as the company CO with the Captain who was the company CO acting as his XO. And we had so many senior NCOs that fire team leaders were E-5 & E-6 while squad leaders were E-7s and the platoon Sgts E-8s.
But that makes it full-auto only, besides the sele... (show quote)


I qualified as "expert" with the M-1 in basic training and the M-14 (in semi auto mode) in AIT. Also had to qualify separately with the M-14 in full auto. I barely qualified as marksman with that beast. Totally uncontrollable. The bipod made a good prone rest for the fist shot, after that the damned thing was all over the place. I knew guys that were fairly proficient with the E-2 version but I never knew anyone who could shoot the standard "14" decently.

Never even saw an M-2 though I owned briefly one of those Universal Arms "sporterized" M-1s. I enjoyed shooting it, but it wasn't a particular caliber that I felt I had a use for so it went away the way it came, in some trade of other.

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Jul 5, 2021 21:44:06   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
TheShoe wrote:
It was possible to turn the M-14 into full-auto by "wearing that part down" with a file. That was still possible in 1968, toward the end of service for that rifle.


Or just install the selector lever (if you have one). But I can assert that having carried a 14 (with a selector lever) for part of my tour in VietNam, it wasn’t that useful on full auto unless you just wanted to fire a burst in the general direction of the target because it was very difficult to control.

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Jul 5, 2021 21:51:28   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
pendennis wrote:
The Seabees in Viet Nam were issued M-14's until ca. 1970. When I got off active duty in the Navy, I stayed in the Navy Reserve for several years, and during that time, I used an M-14, sans selector switch, for National Match competition at Camp Perry. Our rifles were supplied by the USMC Reserve, who occupied the same building we did. They had converted to M-16's, but had 20, or so, still in the armory. I like the M-14 better, especially at the longer match distances. Most had barrels with excessive muzzle wear, and/or excessive head space problems. However, we could get them rebuilt by the Navy Gunner's Mates, or the Marine armorers at the competition. The first year mine got a new barrel and trigger group, then later on a rebuilt gas system. We used those until 1974, when the Marines had to return all M-14's to the central armories. I was issued a "new" M-16 A2, but it just wasn't the rifle the M-14 was.
The Seabees in Viet Nam were issued M-14's until c... (show quote)


I prefer the M14 also, especially at longer range. Its main drawback for us was the weight of the ammo. A full M14 clip weighs nearly 2 lbs while an M16 clip weighs about half that. Big difference if you have to carry a couple dozen clips in a back pack.

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Jul 5, 2021 23:43:13   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
Alafoto wrote:
I qualified as "expert" with the M-1 in basic training and the M-14 (in semi auto mode) in AIT. Also had to qualify separately with the M-14 in full auto. I barely qualified as marksman with that beast. Totally uncontrollable. The bipod made a good prone rest for the fist shot, after that the damned thing was all over the place. I knew guys that were fairly proficient with the E-2 version but I never knew anyone who could shoot the standard "14" decently.

Never even saw an M-2 though I owned briefly one of those Universal Arms "sporterized" M-1s. I enjoyed shooting it, but it wasn't a particular caliber that I felt I had a use for so it went away the way it came, in some trade of other.
I qualified as "expert" with the M-1 in ... (show quote)


Well in Basic I qualified Sharpshooter, missing expert by one point and on my firing lane a work crew had piled up dirt in front of the 50 meter target to the point I could only see about 1" of the top, It took me several shots to chew the top off that pile of dirt so I could hit the 50 meter pop-up.
Then when my unit was preparing to ship out to Nam they decided not to bother to see who was due for qualifications but to just qualify the whole company. That time I got Expert with a pile of points to spare. #2 in the company behind a kid from the Ozarks who had hunted for food since he was 8.
My section Sgt had been on the Army Pistol Team in Europe and he ran the qualifications for the officers with their 1911s in the process he taught those of us helping how to really shoot the 1911. But then after the officers qualified we only had time to go through enough of the course to be authorized to carry a 1911. No qualification badge but he said I was only a couple of points from Expert even on the partial course. One Major was such a bad shot that we let him shoot the course twice and added his scores together - and a couple of his hits were the Sgt firing from the lane next door. Lousy shot, great at his job so the Col had given orders that he would qualify and ship out with us even if the Sgt had to shoot his course for him. Really nice guy and hell on wheels in logistics. Just couldn't hit a barn with a 1911 if he was locked inside. In Nam whenever he left the compound he swapped his 1911 for his driver's M-14 - with a rifle he could shoot fairly well.

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