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Frames vs. Mats
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Jan 16, 2021 14:53:54   #
tnleafer
 
I own a custom frame shop.
32 x 40 and 40 x 60 are factory size board. They generally run up to 1/8 over.
While this is not a problem for a framer, it is an issue for DIY.
If you need exact sizes you will need to be prepared to trim yourself,, or order from a frame shop, it will cost you more.
Your frame needs to be 1/8 larger in both directions than the mat board size. This is only 1/16 extra on each side and allows for expansion. If you ^jam^ the mat into a tight frame, chances are it will buckle and look really bad over time.
There are some online services that will size and cut mats for you, but it would be better to go to a local independent frame shop and develop a relationship. They can provide mats, glass, frames, and all the advice you need to learn to do it properly. Hacked together framing will not enhance your art, your image,, or make a nice presentation.
A lot of photographers tend to be very detailed and picky about their work, yet drop the ball when doing their own framing. I've owned frame shops since the 80's, we do onsite fine art printing, archival framing, etc., and have framed thousand of photo's for myself and others over the years.
You can enhance even a mediocre photo with proper matting and framing. You can also wreck a great photograph and your reputation with a sloppy presentation.
In most cases a simple mat and and minimalist frame will make your work pop and not distract the viewer.
A few tips, use archival mat board, never ever use cardboard as a backer, no packing tape ever, learn to do it correctly, remember if you are proud of your work, proudly present it as the whole package speaks volumes about you.

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Jan 16, 2021 15:02:19   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
photoman022 wrote:
I don't know why a company selling mat board won't sell the size advertised BUT I do know why 2x4 lumber is called 2x4 (although it is smaller). The lumber is measured to the stated size while it is wet and is then dried (either air dried or kiln dried); when the lumber dries it shrinks. As you say, anyone who's ever worked with lumber knows that it is smaller than the nominal size.


The lions share of the size is based on planing. All studs are S4S meaning each side is sanded (planed). This and the drying make 2x4. Hardwood is sold by the 1/4. Rough sawn 4 quarter is actually 1”. 2” is 8 quarter etc. S3S is sanded 3 sides with the 4th side is field ripped to the final dimension.

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Jan 16, 2021 15:10:37   #
bleirer
 
Interesting link here https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/tpr?p=11914869&t=681934

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Jan 16, 2021 15:45:16   #
frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.
 
Longshadow wrote:
(my point.)


Just backing you up and agreeing.

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Jan 16, 2021 15:47:47   #
chasgroh Loc: Buena Park, CA
 
clint f. wrote:
The lions share of the size is based on planing. All studs are S4S meaning each side is sanded (planed). This and the drying make 2x4. Hardwood is sold by the 1/4. Rough sawn 4 quarter is actually 1”. 2” is 8 quarter etc. S3S is sanded 3 sides with the 4th side is field ripped to the final dimension.


You sound like a knowledgable woodworker (I'm also a cabinetmaker...but still primarily a rough carpenter) and mentioning surfacing is entirely correct...but, still, *drying* doesn't have anything to do with the assignment of size to framing lumber. I buy S2S for my art framing material...lots cheaper but another operation jointing (which I do on my trusty Powermatic 66!).

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Jan 16, 2021 16:03:51   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
chasgroh wrote:
You sound like a knowledgable woodworker (I'm also a cabinetmaker...but still primarily a rough carpenter) and mentioning surfacing is entirely correct...but, still, *drying* doesn't have anything to do with the assignment of size to framing lumber. I buy S2S for my art framing material...lots cheaper but another operation jointing (which I do on my trusty Powermatic 66!).


A classic and excellent cabinet saw. I bought a Delta Unisaw because I liked the fence, but I do envy you the finish on the table of the Powermatic

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Jan 16, 2021 16:06:35   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
chasgroh wrote:
You sound like a knowledgable woodworker (I'm also a cabinetmaker...but still primarily a rough carpenter) and mentioning surfacing is entirely correct...but, still, *drying* doesn't have anything to do with the assignment of size to framing lumber. I buy S2S for my art framing material...lots cheaper but another operation jointing (which I do on my trusty Powermatic 66!).


I’m using 4quarter S3S to build a queen sized bed headboard. We have 2 Windsor Plywood stores in town. They sell “Shorts” that are S3S, 6-7’ long at a very low price. They let you pick through the pallet to get the widths. It’s all plain sawn. I have to rip it anyway so I cut off the rough surfaced edge to the pre-jointing dimension. For my quarter sawn I go to interstate and get 4 quarter and plain and joint. Windsor has other species in the shorts area, walnut, maple, alder etc.

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Jan 16, 2021 18:30:25   #
WDCash Loc: Milford, Delaware, USA
 
TomHackett wrote:
Sorry, it was not 2" off. I said 30.05 when I meant 32.05. The discrepancy was 0.05", not 2.05". As I said in the OP, .05" or 3/64" does not matter that much. It's the .125" on the 40" side that bothers me.

By the way, I noticed that Hobby Lobby advertises 32"x40" foam cores that they even say are 32.125"x40.125".


It likely to allow for, a frame that is not exactly square or an exact measurement, possible damage to an edge of the matt material that can be trimmed off, an allowance in production that insures they are not Undersized. We can always trim down but its hard to make it grow.

Makers of many types of sheet goods, intended to be fabricated into a custom size or shape, are often sold slightly oversize. Sunbrella marine canvas for example. Sold as 45 or 60" width will arrive from the mill 46 and 61" wide.

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Jan 16, 2021 20:13:03   #
TomHackett Loc: Kingston, New York
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:

An important tip: When cutting Foam-Cor, Cor-Plast matte board pr other similar materials use a metal straight edge as a guide and a sharp matte knife with a fresh blade and a large angled grip handle. Do not attempt to cut through in one stroke but make several cuts with moderate pressure. You will achieve a clean precise cut with no ragged edges.

If you do a lot of framing, investing in a few "right tools for the job" will pay off. A good straight edge, the kind of knife I recommended and a gun that inserts brads, glazers points or special framing staples will save materials waste and make for an easy production.
br An important tip: When cutting Foam-Cor, Cor-P... (show quote)


Thanks for the good information, especially the tips. I've gotten pretty good cutting smaller mattes and foam boards in the past, but this time I guess I bit off more than I could chew (and got a bad taste in my mouth).

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Jan 16, 2021 21:07:00   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
TomHackett wrote:
I am working toward an installation of about a dozen photographs, 20"x30" each. With mats, the whole assembly will measure 32"x40". So, I ordered frames 32"x40". They came with foam cores and acrylic glazing. Each piece measured exactly 32"x40". The acrylic and foam core fits snugly into the frame, of course. Delightful!

I also ordered mat board in size 32"x40". Unfortunately, the actual size turns out to be 30.05"x40.125". In order to fit the mats into the frames, I have to try to force them in, potentially damaging the frames or the mats, or both. I can live with the extra 3/64" on the short side, but the extra 1/8" on the long side is driving me nuts. I find myself trimming off the extra 1/8". With my modest tools and even more modest skills, this usually means expending a considerable amount of energy and producing a ragged edge.

Why do companies (the mats come from a very reputable company) insist on giving us such a "bonus?" I understand that 2" x 4" lumber isn't really 2" x 4', but I believe there's some rationale for that. (I've probably heard the story, but it doesn't stick with me.) Everyone accepts that and has learned to live with it. But why is 32" x 40" actually 30.05" x 40.125"?

I often buy my foam cores separately from my frames. I buy them 32" x 40" (nominal), since I can get a half dozen 11" x 14" cores from one sheet more inexpensively than purchasing six individual foam cores pre-cut to 11" x 14". I've noticed a discrepancy before, but attributed it to my lazy measuring habits. Besides there's scrap on both sides, so it never really mattered.

Why is this?

Tom
I am working toward an installation of about a doz... (show quote)


All you have to do is spend a few minutes trimming. To avoid ragged edges, use a new mat knife, a cork-backed straightedge, and take multiple light scoring cuts. I've been matting and mounting images for 55 yrs - that's how it's done. Tattered edges come from trying to take too deep a cut and/or the straightedge moving. A dozen pictures should take you maybe 5-6 minutes total to trim. I would let your supplier know about the error for future orders, or find a different supplier.

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Jan 16, 2021 21:59:42   #
TomHackett Loc: Kingston, New York
 
Gene51 wrote:
All you have to do is spend a few minutes trimming.


Thanks!

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Jan 16, 2021 22:05:14   #
dat2ra Loc: Sacramento
 
photoman022 wrote:
lumber is measured to the stated size while it is wet and is then dried (either air dried or kiln dried); when the lumber dries it shrinks. As you say, anyone who's ever worked with lumber knows that it is smaller than the nominal size.


Not meaning to be a pedant, but actually, unmilled (aka "rough") lumber such as is commonly used outdoors, is 2" x 4". This is then milled (planed) smooth on all sides to 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 for interior use.

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Jan 17, 2021 09:59:38   #
Mr. Evans Loc: Ohio
 
TomHackett wrote:
I am working toward an installation of about a dozen photographs, 20"x30" each. With mats, the whole assembly will measure 32"x40". So, I ordered frames 32"x40". They came with foam cores and acrylic glazing. Each piece measured exactly 32"x40". The acrylic and foam core fits snugly into the frame, of course. Delightful!

I also ordered mat board in size 32"x40". Unfortunately, the actual size turns out to be 30.05"x40.125". In order to fit the mats into the frames, I have to try to force them in, potentially damaging the frames or the mats, or both. I can live with the extra 3/64" on the short side, but the extra 1/8" on the long side is driving me nuts. I find myself trimming off the extra 1/8". With my modest tools and even more modest skills, this usually means expending a considerable amount of energy and producing a ragged edge.

Why do companies (the mats come from a very reputable company) insist on giving us such a "bonus?" I understand that 2" x 4" lumber isn't really 2" x 4', but I believe there's some rationale for that. (I've probably heard the story, but it doesn't stick with me.) Everyone accepts that and has learned to live with it. But why is 32" x 40" actually 30.05" x 40.125"?

I often buy my foam cores separately from my frames. I buy them 32" x 40" (nominal), since I can get a half dozen 11" x 14" cores from one sheet more inexpensively than purchasing six individual foam cores pre-cut to 11" x 14". I've noticed a discrepancy before, but attributed it to my lazy measuring habits. Besides there's scrap on both sides, so it never really mattered.

Why is this?

Tom
I am working toward an installation of about a doz... (show quote)


I can think of two reasons: first, the trimmer of the mats might figure the size is "close enough." And second, if they give you a slightly larger size, it allows you to trim the edge if the corners have been dinged or bent. I prefer it that way. Trimming a mat board is not too hard with the right tools and very hard to to do with the wrong tools. Use a good straight edge. Fletcher makes a good one that will keep your fingers safe. Use a utility knife with a NEW blade. A blade is only good for about 20' of cutting and then it's shot. An X-Acto knife is not a good tool for this kind of cutting. The blade is too long and can bend. The knife is held in a pencil-thin handle because it should be used with the leverage of a pencil. And most importantly, the surface you are cutting on is important. Self-healing cutting surfaces are great, but expensive. The blade has to go into the cutting surface slightly to make a clean cut. And last, don't try to cut through 4-ply board with one cut; it takes too much force and your hands can slip. Two or three cuts makes it easier.

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