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JPEG vs RAW
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Sep 28, 2020 01:42:27   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
gwilliams6 wrote:
I always shoot raw+jpeg and it is the best of both worlds IMHO as a pro of over 40 years in the business. I do love Mark Wallace of Adorama, he does a great job explaining things in a way most can understand. Cheers


The best of both worlds issue has to do with exposure. If you expose to get the best possible JPEG odds are, depending on the specific camera, that you don't have the best possible raw exposure. If you expose for the best possible raw file odds are, depending on the specific camera, you just ruined the JPEG.

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Sep 28, 2020 01:56:20   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
amfoto1 wrote:
All digital images are RAW when first taken. If you set the camera to save the RAW file, it simply saves everything that was originally captured. But a RAW file is not an image. It's just data that was gathered by the sensor. You can't "print a RAW file". If first much be processed or "developed" into an image.

A raw file is an image. It can be displayed and viewed and recognized as the image recorded by the camera and although it may not look great it can be printed. The above is a myth. I don't know where it came from but it's wrong. Raw data stored in most raw files is basically a TIFF file. There are numerous software apps that will display or output raw data in a viewable form -- best know is dcraw. RawDigger is another app that will allow you to view unprocessed raw data as an image. Below is a screenshot of RawDigger displaying unprocessed raw data. I zoomed in so you could see the color filter array. You're looking at the center of a daffodil. If you look close you can tell the photo was taken by a Fuji camera as the X-Trans CFA is visible.


(Download)

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Sep 28, 2020 02:29:44   #
Boris77
 
Ysarex wrote:
They both have the same number of pixels. The JPEG is created from the raw file which comes first. They can both be printed equally large with nearly equal sharpness -- raw can handle sharpness a little better.

That raw offers greater latitude for PP is correct and that is a big difference. Why that's the case needs to be understood. The JPEG by definition must be compressed and is limited to an 8 bit image. The compression used with JPEGs is what we call lossy as in loss. Data is lost in the compression method and unrecoverable. The 8 bit limit applied to the JPEG likewise fixes the amount of data the file can contain and compared with the raw file it's less.

The JPEG is a finished image with the processing work completed. In the specification for the JPEG algorithm the term archive is used to define the format -- JPEG is an archive format. What they mean is that JPEG was intended to save the final form of the image in a compressed state.

The JPEG algorithm is brilliant plain and simple. It can take an RGB image and successfully compress it by 80% such that viewing the image we can't see any difference. It's a technological triumph and has enabled our current sharing of data and images. Imagine if all the images on the internet (still and video) instantly increased in size by 85% -- the increased bandwidth demand would strangle the internet to death instantly.

Because JPEG saves/archives a processed image you can face problems if you don't like the processing that was applied to get the image to it's final form. Many people will further edit JPEG images. This can be more difficult and require more skill and time than processing raw data because it can be hard to "unbake a cake" as it were. It's easier and more direct to effect a processing result with raw data than to start with a different result applied and saved in a JPEG and then try and get the desired result with the JPEG that was already created differently.

I personally prefer to work from the raw data because not only can I achieve the results I want, I can do that so much easier and so much faster. I also prefer to limit my effort behind the camera to just capturing the subject I want. If shooting only JPEG and you want to avoid the increased difficulty that comes from editing a JPEG then you really need to devote attention at the time you're behind the camera to adjust the various JPEG parameters available in the camera software. I need only compose and nail exposure. The JPEG shooter needs to compose, nail exposure, consider WB, consider the camera's DR (lighting contrast) adjustments, and potentially tone, color and sharpness adjustments, etc. as they will all be baked into the camera JPEG.

Two final considerations: 1. The camera engineers must pay attention to how fast your camera can create and save a JPEG and then take the next photo. They must address the expectation that the user could want to take several photos in quick secession. If they devote more effort to creating the JPEG it will take time. They have the option to increase the power and memory of the camera but that increases cost. So there's always a trade off made in the design of every camera to cut a few corners and/or use a faster but not quite as good algorithm than what's available in a computer workstation. No free lunch.

2. The camera software has no idea what you photographed and what you want it to look like. Therefore it has no alternative but to process your image to the bell curve. The camera software must apply averaging methodologies to the processing it does and treat your photo with the expectation that it meets the standard average parameters. This process of applying averages is something we do to manage many aspects of our lives. It allows us to automate processes. The corn is an average height and the machine can harvest it etc. Applying the rule of a mean makes automation possible. The software in your camera is automated and although you can influence how it behaves you ultimately don't fully control it's automatic behavior. The mean will rule. Another word with the same root as mean is mediocre.
They both have the same number of pixels. The JPEG... (show quote)


Enjoyed your explanation. Jpeg processing may be average, but the controls set on the camera by the user can be specific, which means the picture IS an expression of the photographer. Let the camera do the hard work, then nudge the result on another computer (with a big screen) to complete the image.
Boris

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Sep 28, 2020 06:54:09   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Ysarex wrote:
The best of both worlds issue has to do with exposure. If you expose to get the best possible JPEG odds are, depending on the specific camera, that you don't have the best possible raw exposure. If you expose for the best possible raw file odds are, depending on the specific camera, you just ruined the JPEG.


Where have I heard that before?

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Sep 28, 2020 07:51:08   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Ysarex wrote:
A raw file is an image. It can be displayed and viewed and recognized as the image recorded by the camera and although it may not look great it can be printed. The above is a myth. I don't know where it came from but it's wrong. Raw data stored in most raw files is basically a TIFF file. There are numerous software apps that will display or output raw data in a viewable form -- best know is dcraw. RawDigger is another app that will allow you to view unprocessed raw data as an image. Below is a screenshot of RawDigger displaying unprocessed raw data. I zoomed in so you could see the color filter array. You're looking at the center of a daffodil. If you look close you can tell the photo was taken by a Fuji camera as the X-Trans CFA is visible.
A raw file is an image. It can be displayed and vi... (show quote)


Actually a raw file is NOT an image. What you are looking at when you "see" a raw file is a bit-mapped rendering of a raw file - even in RawDigger's "raw composite" rendering selection. I agree that RawDigger does show considerably more information than your average raw converter and the image displayed is better - but it is using a very thorough converter to achieve this.

Dcraw, which is widely used in the industry to "show" a raw image is actually converting raw data on the fly into a viewable form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dcraw

"dcraw is an open-source computer program which is able to read numerous raw image format files, typically produced by mid-range and high-end digital cameras. dcraw converts these images into the standard TIFF and PPM image formats. This conversion is sometimes referred to as developing a raw image (by analogy with the process of film development) since it renders raw image sensor data (a "digital negative") into a viewable form.

A number of other image processing programs use dcraw internally to enable them to read raw files.


And raw is not the same as tiff. Raw is unprocessed image sensor data and tiff is the bit-mapped conversion of that data - and if using the 16 bit uncompressed option, the best most editable with minimal loss version of the raw data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

I don't wish to get into a lengthy pedantic argument with you - since the always descend into vitriol and ad hominem attacks. I just wanted to some of your representations using some verifiable sources with citations, including some of your own sources.

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Sep 28, 2020 08:01:59   #
Blair Shaw Jr Loc: Dunnellon,Florida
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
If you only listen to the RAW shooters, you will become deaf to all your possible successes.



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Sep 28, 2020 08:10:58   #
Blair Shaw Jr Loc: Dunnellon,Florida
 
Gene51 wrote:
Actually a raw file is NOT an image. What you are looking at when you "see" a raw file is a bit-mapped rendering of a raw file - even in RawDigger's "raw composite" rendering selection. I agree that RawDigger does show considerably more information than your average raw converter and the image displayed is better - but it is using a very thorough converter to achieve this.

Dcraw, which is widely used in the industry to "show" a raw image is actually converting raw data on the fly into a viewable form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dcraw

"dcraw is an open-source computer program which is able to read numerous raw image format files, typically produced by mid-range and high-end digital cameras. dcraw converts these images into the standard TIFF and PPM image formats. This conversion is sometimes referred to as developing a raw image (by analogy with the process of film development) since it renders raw image sensor data (a "digital negative") into a viewable form.

A number of other image processing programs use dcraw internally to enable them to read raw files.


And raw is not the same as tiff. Raw is unprocessed image sensor data and tiff is the bit-mapped conversion of that data - and if using the 16 bit uncompressed option, the best most editable with minimal loss version of the raw data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

I don't wish to get into a lengthy pedantic argument with you - since the always descend into vitriol and ad hominem attacks. I just wanted to some of your representations using some verifiable sources with citations, including some of your own sources.
Actually a raw file is NOT an image. What you are ... (show quote)



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Sep 28, 2020 08:21:47   #
Blair Shaw Jr Loc: Dunnellon,Florida
 
Thanks to all. You guys really have helped me to better appreciate this stuff and I learned more in this site than anywhere else in very short order. It is such a privilege to read and follow the tutorials here and to gain wisdom and confidence in this steep learning environment as many of us struggle to grasp these concepts.

This is always the best part of my morning read and although when things get sticky, it's a small price to pay for the enormous rewards this forum brings to our craft. Thank you all again.....it was a JOY.

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Sep 28, 2020 09:08:13   #
nikonbrain Loc: Crystal River Florida
 
Ysarex wrote:
A raw file is an image. It can be displayed and viewed and recognized as the image recorded by the camera and although it may not look great it can be printed. The above is a myth. I don't know where it came from but it's wrong. Raw data stored in most raw files is basically a TIFF file. There are numerous software apps that will display or output raw data in a viewable form -- best know is dcraw. RawDigger is another app that will allow you to view unprocessed raw data as an image. Below is a screenshot of RawDigger displaying unprocessed raw data. I zoomed in so you could see the color filter array. You're looking at the center of a daffodil. If you look close you can tell the photo was taken by a Fuji camera as the X-Trans CFA is visible.
A raw file is an image. It can be displayed and vi... (show quote)


YOU ARE WRONG A raw file is just information period it can only be viewed because of an imbedded small Jpeg . It has to be processed by a RAW CONVERTER to become an Image ...so far you are the one believing differently. A camera raw image file contains minimally processed data from the image sensor of either a digital camera, a motion picture film scanner, or other image scanner.[1][2] Raw files are named so because they are not yet processed and therefore are not ready to be printed or edited with a bitmap graphics editor. Normally, the image is processed by a raw converter in a wide-gamut internal color space where precise adjustments can be made before conversion to a "positive" file format such as TIFF or JPEG for storage, printing, or further manipulation. There are dozens of raw formats in use by different manufacturers of digital image capture equipment.Just 1 example from Wiki ,All raw files need to BE CONVERTED INTO AN IMAGE to be viewed That is why they are called RAW CONVERTERS ....Again from wiki ..Raw image files are sometimes incorrectly described as "digital negatives", but neither are they negatives nor do the unprocessed files constitute visible images. Rather, the Raw datasets are more like exposed but undeveloped film which can be converted (electronically developed) in a non-destructive manner multiple times in observable, reversible steps to reach a visually desired image. (With exposed film, development is a single event that physically transforms the unexposed film irreversibly.) Further evidence Herehttps://petapixel.com/2019/07/15/what-does-an-unprocessed-raw-file-look-like/ A raw file is not an image before going through a Raw Converter period..

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Sep 28, 2020 09:15:11   #
BebuLamar
 
Why the RAW file is not an image? Not because it's only 1 and 0 because all computer files are 1 and 0.
An image file must contain a Red, a Green and a Blue value for each pixel. Most cameras only capture 1 of these values at each pixel site and thus the each pixel in the RAW file only has either Red, Green or Blue value but not all three. The RAW Converter software either in camera or separate on a computer has to use a demosaic algorithm to assign 3 values to each pixel. That is the reason why the the RAW file is not an image.

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Sep 28, 2020 09:31:35   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Gene51 wrote:
Actually a raw file is NOT an image. What you are looking at when you "see" a raw file is a bit-mapped rendering of a raw file - even in RawDigger's "raw composite" rendering selection.

And how is that different that seeing a JPEG file bit-mapped and rendered on a screen? When you see a JPEG on screen you see an image made up of (R)ed (G)reen and (B)lue pixels. There's no RGB data is a JPEG file.

Unprocessed raw data is viewable as the image captured by the camera and it's displayable with less processing than required to display a JPEG.

https://petapixel.com/2019/07/15/what-does-an-unprocessed-raw-file-look-like/
Gene51 wrote:
Dcraw, which is widely used in the industry to "show" a raw image is actually converting raw data on the fly into a viewable form. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dcraw

"dcraw is an open-source computer program which is able to read numerous raw image format files, typically produced by mid-range and high-end digital cameras. dcraw converts these images into the standard TIFF and PPM image formats. This conversion is sometimes referred to as developing a raw image (by analogy with the process of film development) since it renders raw image sensor data (a "digital negative") into a viewable form.

A number of other image processing programs use dcraw internally to enable them to read raw files.
Dcraw, which is widely used in the industry to &qu... (show quote)

Dcraw will convert a raw file. But it also provides an option to simply extract the unprocessed raw data from the file. That unprocessed raw data is viewable and recognizable as the image captured by the camera.
dcraw -D [file] http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/bionic/man1/dcraw.1.html
Gene51 wrote:
And raw is not the same as tiff.

Raw data stored in most raw files is in the same raster form as data in a TIFF file.
"Many raw file formats, including IIQ (Phase One), 3FR (Hasselblad), DCR, K25, KDC (Kodak), CRW CR2 CR3 (Canon), ERF (Epson), MEF (Mamiya), MOS (Leaf), NEF NRW (Nikon), ORF (Olympus), PEF (Pentax), RW2 (Panasonic) and ARW, SRF, SR2 (Sony), are based on the TIFF file format." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

I don't want to get into a lengthy pedantic argument, but unprocessed raw data is viewable as the image captured by the camera. That makes raw files image files -- see supporting sources above.

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Sep 28, 2020 09:37:54   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
nikonbrain wrote:
YOU ARE WRONG

No. https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-667280-8.html#11607681

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Sep 28, 2020 09:45:32   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
BebuLamar wrote:
Why the RAW file is not an image? Not because it's only 1 and 0 because all computer files are 1 and 0.
An image file must contain a Red, a Green and a Blue value for each pixel.

What about B&W images? And if you want to define an image as containing RGB pixel values then that makes all the JPEGs out there not image files.
BebuLamar wrote:
Most cameras only capture 1 of these values at each pixel site and thus the each pixel in the RAW file only has either Red, Green or Blue value but not all three. The RAW Converter software either in camera or separate on a computer has to use a demosaic algorithm to assign 3 values to each pixel. That is the reason why the the RAW file is not an image.

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Sep 28, 2020 10:21:56   #
nikonbrain Loc: Crystal River Florida
 


You are still wrong ....

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Sep 28, 2020 10:47:38   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
nikonbrain wrote:
You are still wrong ....


The link you referenced supports my position. You provided a good source that says your wrong.
https://petapixel.com/2019/07/15/what-does-an-unprocessed-raw-file-look-like/

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