Is It an Upgrade or Is It Not? (Page 2): Ah, more spray and less pray approach. Valid reasoning. --Bob...

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Ah, more spray and less pray approach. Valid reasoning.
--Bob

billnikon wrote:

The fact that I can load a EN-EL18 battery into the D850's vertical grip and get 9 fps you bet your bippy it's an upgrade.
Plus the D850 has AUTO fine tuning, the D810 does not, and the fact that the D850 has the separate and faster focusing system than the D810, the D850 shares that BETTER focusing system with the D500 and D5. Again, kudos to the UPGRADES on the D850 over the D810.

ronpier Loc: Poland Ohio

larryepage wrote:

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

A lot of discussions here are based around trying ... (show quote)

To me a camera upgrade is: 1. Will it produce better images? 2. Does it offer usable features that are not available on my current model that will enhance my hobby? Not extra features that will not be used. Extra USABLE features. Not satisfying at least one of these to me is not an upgrade, simply a new camera which is in itself awesome but not achieving its primary purpose of #1 and or #2. IMO

scubadoc Loc: Sarasota, FL

ronpier wrote:

To me a camera upgrade is: 1. Will it produce better images? 2. Does it offer usable features that are not available on my current model that will enhance my hobby? Not extra features that will not be used. Extra USABLE features. Not satisfying at least one of these to me is not an upgrade, simply a new camera which is in itself awesome but not achieving its primary purpose of #1 and or #2. IMO

Useable is such a subjective quality, and it obviously depends on what type of photography you do. Do you need faster focusing, do you need continuous tracking for BIF, do you need better dynamic range for landscape photography, will you use in-camera focus stacking? The “useable” features go on and on, and the camera manufacturers now how to make a “useable” feature, a “must have” feature. Technological advances in almost anything that we interact with is designed to make what was once a difficult process to achieve, usually by the most experienced and technologically proficient, a very simple process, achievable by almost anyone who can turn on the camera and remember to take off the lens hood. Examples abound in everyday life: automatic transmission in cars, GUI in computers, AI in photographic post processing. No matter what we engage in, we all want “useability”, even if we never take advantage of that new feature.

JD750 Loc: SoCal

ronpier wrote:

To me a camera upgrade is: 1. Will it produce better images? 2. Does it offer usable features that are not available on my current model that will enhance my hobby? Not extra features that will not be used. Extra USABLE features. Not satisfying at least one of these to me is not an upgrade, simply a new camera which is in itself awesome but not achieving its primary purpose of #1 and or #2. IMO

“The single most underrated piece of gear in your entire arsenal is the one between your ears. There simply is no camera, light modifier, flash or lens than can replace your creative mind for great composition. No piece of gear will make you a better photographer. “

jaycoffman Loc: San Diego

Very nice post and, BTW, if I needed an engineer I would hire you. Too often engineers seem to just fix the immediate problem without asking if it is necessary or useful or how the whole operation fits into the big picture. (Long arguments with my sister--chemical engineer--and father of my spiritual daughter--mechanical engineer--just for the record.)

Applying to cameras I believe the first step is to consider what you want to photograph, the conditions under which you take pictures how you hope to use them and what your present pictures are lacking (that's the bigger picture for me.)

When I changed to DSLR I picked the Nikon d7100. This worked very well for me and I resisted the urge to "upgrade" to any of the newer Nikon models because even though they were better I was doing well with what I had. After many years I realized that I was missing shots in low light and that I was not as pleased with the images (IQ) as I would like. Also, I use my pictures to inject into travel stories I write for friends and I wanted to up my photography a bit. I also found that while my earlier travel had been on motorcycles and sail boats I was now traveling more around the world to different countries and cultures.

So eventually I went to full frame mirrorless (Sony a7iii). This was a big change for me and drove me crazy with the learning curve which is something I like and it inspired me again. I am happy with the change. I think my reasoning would be compatible with yours although maybe expressed slightly differently. Good conversation.

Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb

I believe our minds are all different, as well as our pockets. Both dictate our actions. If money is no object we can buy on a whim, if money is tight our desire is in second place. I'm in-between so I have to search for a good reason to change (move to new design). At this point I have good equipment (5D IV and 7D II) and they do all I expect of them. If I buy ? camera what will it do for me to make a better picture? Don't see any improvements on that end and I will have to get familiar with a new camera. Today I pick up my camera and don't give a thought to what my hands have to do, I only look toward the taking of a picture.
Have fun.

LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America

With a NIKON F4s I had matrix metering, AF and 1/8000 shutter speed.

A DSLR eliminates film and development costs and lag times, expanded ISO and and longer battery life.

Past that, technology has not provided a lot of meaningful upgrades.

repleo Loc: Boston

JD750 wrote:

“The single most underrated piece of gear in your entire arsenal is the one between your ears. There simply is no camera, light modifier, flash or lens than can replace your creative mind for great composition. No piece of gear will make you a better photographer. “

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

LWW wrote:

With a NIKON F4s I had matrix metering, AF and 1/8000 shutter speed.

A DSLR eliminates film and development costs and lag times, expanded ISO and and longer battery life.

Past that, technology has not provided a lot of meaningful upgrades.

ricosha Loc: Phoenix, Arizona

larryepage wrote:

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

A lot of discussions here are based around trying ... (show quote)

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Is that ever true. People can keep chasing that great photograph by constantly purchasing cameras. Knowing how to produce a good photograph with the camera one has is priceless. That, more importantly, includes the mental aspect of knowing what constitutes a good photograph and how to achieve that.
--Bob

JD750 wrote:

“The single most underrated piece of gear in your entire arsenal is the one between your ears. There simply is no camera, light modifier, flash or lens than can replace your creative mind for great composition. No piece of gear will make you a better photographer. “

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

larryepage wrote:

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

A lot of discussions here are based around trying ... (show quote)

I've always felt that a true upgrade is something you do or buy that improves the way you approach your hobby, business, or craft. If a new camera body or lens, or some good training improves your experience and/or results, it was an upgrade. If not, it is a "sunk cost," as we project managers like to call fruitless expenditures.

If you bought a D850 and used it as if it were a D3100, you would probably improve technical image quality dramatically. But would you make better *photographs?* Would your customers/audience/viewers be amazed? Would you tell better visual stories? Or would you just be able to say, "Mine's bigger than yours," like the Eric Stratton character in Animal House?

AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio

JD750 wrote:

“The single most underrated piece of gear in your entire arsenal is the one between your ears. There simply is no camera, light modifier, flash or lens than can replace your creative mind for great composition. No piece of gear will make you a better photographer. “

Quixdraw Loc: x

To me "upgrade" simply means something that allows me to achieve things that can't be accomplished with current equipment. For example, the D810 allows me to crop to much smaller portions of an image than my other cameras. Another one, the AF S 200-500 5.6 E ED extends my reach to enable capture of wildlife at greater distance on private land where I can't get closer. At this point, unless a camera or lens fails, I do believe I'm "upgraded" adequately

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

Will you even recognize the person you were before you upgraded?