Is It an Upgrade or Is It Not? A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is...

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

NMGal Loc: NE NM

Very interesting and thought provoking.

miked46 Loc: Winter Springs, Florida

As for me, I am going to buy a new body later this year. I don't really need it, as my 80D is working well. But I want a FF mirrorless and so I am leaning towards the EOS RP, for 2 reasons.
1 - size I'm 74 and want something lighter/smaller
2 - can use all of my available EF/EF-S lens.
mainly for use as a travel camera

Jimmy T Loc: Virginia

larryepage wrote:

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

A lot of discussions here are based around trying ... (show quote)

Boy, are we on the same page! Your "So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different." statement really sums it up for me.
Sort of like "bench racing". Everyone knows that "Chevy Rules."
Too harsh?
Smile,
JimmyT Sends

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

Nice post. Basically, it comes down to money. If money were no object, I'd have dozens of cameras, and why not? Most people operate on some kind of financial limitation, so they have to decide if the new camera or lens is worth the money. I love my D750, and I see no reason to get the D780. If money weren't a consideration, I would buy a D780 and use both of them.

Some people have trouble deciding whether to take the Ferrari or the Lamborghini on that long drive. I don't have that problem. I take my Honda Fit.

tcthome Loc: NJ

Jimmy T wrote:

Boy, are we on the same page! Your "So...whil... (show quote)

tcthome Loc: NJ

I get the whole opinion thread thing. As for your choice on the D850 update/upgrade thing, it depends on what you do with your camera. For me (I own a D810) it would be 2x the usable ISO, BLI, in camera focus shift, & fps with the vertical grip. To me that is an upgrade. It would be nice to have 2 cameras with different lens mounted on each at times also. To me , you purchased the best all around Dslr made. Enjoy your new camera.

billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont

larryepage wrote:

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

A lot of discussions here are based around trying ... (show quote)

The fact that I can load a EN-EL18 battery into the D850's vertical grip and get 9 fps you bet your bippy it's an upgrade.
Plus the D850 has AUTO fine tuning, the D810 does not, and the fact that the D850 has the separate and faster focusing system than the D810, the D850 shares that BETTER focusing system with the D500 and D5. Again, kudos to the UPGRADES on the D850 over the D810.

BebuLamar

larryepage wrote:

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

A lot of discussions here are based around trying ... (show quote)

It's best not to recommend or comment.

camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.

I am sure that persons like me are entirely satisfied with what they have. I have an old D7000. I know the D7200 and the D500 are more modern and better cameras but, do I really need them? No is my answer.
I use a D610 as my so called full frame camera. Do I need a D750 or a D810. No is my answer. My though in these cases is that if the camera is doing what I need and has the features that I find useful in my photographic style an update is only an unnecessary waste of money. As Jerry said, if you have money to burn them update often and update fast if so you desire.

What I have is more than enough for my needs.

mizzee Loc: Boston,Ma

When I upgraded from my Mark 5 II to the III, I did it for the additional features. Sure the extra pixels were nice but that wasn’t my main driver. I’m very happy with my choice and can’t think of anything more that would make me upgrade again. (Until I do!)

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

miked46 wrote:

As for me, I am going to buy a new body later this year. I don't really need it, as my 80D is working well. But I want a FF mirrorless and so I am leaning towards the EOS RP, for 2 reasons.
1 - size I'm 74 and want something lighter/smaller
2 - can use all of my available EF/EF-S lens.
mainly for use as a travel camera

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

miked46 wrote:

As for me, I am going to buy a new body later this year.

In the future, that won't mean a camera body. At 76, I'm thinking I could use a new body.

Blair Shaw Jr Loc: Dunnellon,Florida

larryepage wrote:

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

A lot of discussions here are based around trying ... (show quote)

Great thoughts Larry. Thank you. Perspective is everything and the enlightened path is rewarded by the Journey, itself , and Not the object providing it despite our best intentions,otherwise.

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Very valid opinionated points. I went through the same when deciding to upgrade from a D700 to a D800e then added a D850. There were considerable improvements between each. However, you'll never convince the "a new camera will make me a better photographer crowd". Personally, I've never been able to figure out why the numerous models are being offered at the same time. From an engineering stand point, that can produce more problems than seems necessary. Your time and effort on this contribution should be appreciated.
--Bob

larryepage wrote:

A lot of discussions here are based around trying to decide whether a new camera purchase is a reasonable and good expenditure or not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, especially when it seeks to help us make sure that we are using our resources in a responsible manner. Of course, there is an argument to be made that for those of us who are hobbyists or even enthusiasts, none of our expenditures are ever "required." They do not determine whether we have a place to live or food to eat, which are certainly more basic requirements of (and for) life.

As an engineer, though, the most fascinating question in my mind is always the one that asks whether some specific purchase or move is a reasonable "upgrade." The answers are generally even more fascinating than the question, and it is remarkable how many times the discussion will evolve (devolve?) into an argument that completely redirects the energy of the discussion. Sometimes it is pertinent to the original question; many times it is not. What follows is built around engineering decision-making and personal experience. There are a lot of "I's" to remind you of that. Thought about editing them out, but thought that would weaken the story, so left them in.

As an example (but please do not derail this discussion into trying to redirect my solution to answering the question..it's done and I'm happy and opinions no longer matter) there is a currently open around whether a particular new camera model represents a significant "upgrade" over the model it replaced. I couldn't contribute details to that discussion, but could state truthfully that a couple of years ago I faced the same decision around wanting to bu a new camera even though it hadn't been too long since I had bought the model it "replaced." In my case, I decided that there was no way the new camera could be considered as an upgrade to the one that I already had, but that it did make sense as a second body to shoot alongside it. There was at least one response that, without using the words, indicated that if I could not see that the one camera was clearly an upgrade over the other one, there was clearly something wrong with my mental processes.

My point here is that when a camera or lens is being judged around whether it is an upgrade or not, it is critically important to consider where you are coming from as well as where you are going. (It is, of course, also important to try to keep in mind what capabilities you actually need or want, not just what might be available.) As an example using Nikon cameras, I doubt that very many people would deny that a move from a D3100 to a D850 is an upgrade. Going from that D3100 to a D810 would probably be considered an upgrade by most. But going from a D810 to a D850 is more like an upDATE. It might be considered a minor upgrade by some users. We could probably have quite a discussion around moving from a D750 to a D850. My answer there is simply that if that change is not an upgrade to you, then you should just keep your D750. Be assured, though, that there are some of us who clearly see that move as a clear upgrade. The same is true between a D750 and a D780.

So...while I am not a supporter of "opinion as truth," I do believe that situations are different. I am suggesting that there is benefit here in saying "Why" when we give counsel. (As an example, you will never sway me on a camera purchase by ballyhooing video capabilities, but I understand if they are important to you. Built-in flash is also a non-thing with me.) I went from a D300 and D300s to a D810. I guarantee you that was an upgrade and an update and probably two or three other things for which the words aren't coming to mind right now. But when I added a D850, even recognizing its added capabilities, it was really just adding a second body. The real, realizable capabilities of those two cameras are remarkably similar, and I still love and prefer the sound of the D810's shutter and mirror mechanism.

Does all of this matter? Probably not as much to anyone else as it seems to matter to me. But maybe it will help someone along the way.

A lot of discussions here are based around trying ... (show quote)