cameraf4 Loc: Delaware

I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate a bit since the subject of RAW vs (Anything else) keeps popping up. I hope that the more knowledgeable Hogs (The less caustic ones, please) will correct me where I get it wrong.

Folks here often talk about how a RAW file looks --- how it is better than, say, a JPG. My understanding is that, strictly speaking, a RAW file CANNOT be seen. It is only DATA, 1s and 0s, and not a view-able image. What we see on the viewscreen of A) our camera or B) our computer screen is a JPG generated by either A) our camera's software or B) our computer's Post Processing software. However you slice it, to me it is still a JPG.

Now I understand that RAW files are much more open to adjustments than JPG or TIF. But I wonder if any other Nikon users have done any testing to see how a RAW-to-JPG file actually compares to an "origianl" (first generation) Nikon camera-generated "FINE-STAR" (Optimal Quality) JPG. Since many Nikons (sorry, they are what I am most familiar with) have 2 memory card slots and allow simultaneous shooting of NEF and FINE-STAR images, this shouldn't be too difficult to test.

Finally, if one shoots RAW and, presumably, saves those image files, is there any reason to save the "viewable" (shareable) image as an 8-Bit TIF rather than an 8-Bit JPG?

Guess I was always too curious for my own good.

Bob Mevis Loc: Plymouth, Indiana

You raise an interesting question. I'm just starting raw. I gotta tell you, you might get more feedback than you bargained for. LOL!

IDguy Loc: Idaho

The in-camera jpegs are processed before compression to jpegs. You can adjust by selecting a picture style, white balance, ADL and noise reduction options. You can also adjust the adjustments made by the picture style adjustments, e.g. sharpening and contrast, etc. These can also be readjusted in post processing but the jpegs are more limited on how much and how effective compared to working with the RAW image file.

For example, jpegs are 8 bit. Nikon RAW are 12 or 14 bit, depending on menu selection. Thus RAW files have at least sixteen or thirty two TIMES as much data. Possibly much more depending on jpeg compression.

IDguy Loc: Idaho

You don’t need two cards to store both jpeg and RAW images. Nikons will happily store both on one card if you choose that option.

SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA

Any image file, RAW, JPG, TIF, etc. is just a series of 1s and 0s. The difference is RAW means it's proprietary format dependent on the manufacturer and model of camera, (these can be NEF, RW2, ORF, etc.) Those files can be displayed but only by software that can read that proprietary software. JPG or TIF are based on an accepted standard that is used by multiple platforms to display images. As for whether to save as 8 bit TIF or JPG, it depends on your purpose. TIF can save layers, so if you're thinking of future editing it's better, but I would just keep the original in whatever bit level it's in for editing. If I'm saving for output it's pretty much always JPG. It's a much more universal format for online display and also what most commercial printers prefer. Some take TIF also but they're bigger files and take longer to upload. The only time I might use TIF if I was sending it to a high end printer where they have equipment that will make a difference.

And what's actually displayed is a bitmap. The software that displays it, whether it's JPG conversion or proprietary software, converts those 1s and 0s to pixels displayed on the screen.

BlackRipleyDog

RAW is the unprocessed data file created by the camera's software from the information captured by the sensor. You are not looking at a RAW picture. What the camera is showing you is it's interpolation of that data presented as a JPEG. The RAW file has a JPEG embedded in it's code. That is the Cliff Notes explanation.
Unless you are doing post-processing with a program like Photoshop or Lightroom, you will not be able to do anything with them. Also any post software has to to have the codec necessary to work with the RAWs from your camera. That codec is not the same from one camera brand to another and differs by models as well. That is why Adobe stepped away from supporting and updating endless legacy versions of their program that would of been necessary every time a new camera hit the market and went with a single standardized Photoshop/Lightroom.
The closest analogy is getting your film developed and printed at your Walgreens and filing the negatives away in a drawer somewhere. In the meantime, shoot RAW - Fine JEPG. The camera's Picture Control settings will allow you to fine-tune the JPEGS. Archive the RAWs and share your jpegs where you want. Those are your prints. Later on when you take that next step into post-processing, you will have the 16bit files to work with at a more serious level.

rook2c4 Loc: Philadelphia, PA USA

This is something that many photographers, particularly beginners, fail to understand. Obviously RAW editors need to display an image (based on default settings) to facilitate making adjustments - without some sort of visual reference this would be nearly impossible, like working in the dark. The starting point may or may not be based on camera settings; a good RAW editor will give the user this option in its settings menu.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Everything in a computer is only 1s and 0s. When you typed the digit 1 in the sentence above your computer understood you really meant 00110001.

Raw file data is basically stored in a container file with the same structure as a TIFF file and it can be displayed. It's just not really worth doing that because it doesn't look too good. Below is a JPEG created from an unprocessed raw file (peach blossom). To display it here at UHH I had to convert it to a JPEG. If you want to see it uncompressed as a TIFF file here's a link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/udfdb34bzlmnym7/SAM_2818.tif?dl=0
You can zoom in close and see the Bayer array.



Yep, I've done that. The JPEGs that our Nikon cameras create are very good. Given the original raw file I will always beat the camera and deliver an final photo with better overall IQ.



I'd say no. Any photos for viewing and sharing should ideally be JPEG and take advantage of the JPEG compression. Uncompressed photos can make sharing pretty difficult.

Joe

(Download)

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

What you see in the RAW editor is not a JPEG, it is a rendering by the editor of the RAW data for one to view.
Notice that one of the save options is "Save as JPEG"? The editor has to convert the rendered "image" you are viewing to save it as a JPEG.

johngault007 Loc: Florida Panhandle

I know that in DarkTable, there are 4-6 modules that have to process the RAW data before it's in a viewable state to continue post processing.

As far as the difference between what my camera can process into a JPG compared to my final output post processing myself, I can more than likely match it if I choose to, but I like having a bit more control outside of the camera on most things. If I'm at my daughters school just tearing through shots for her teacher of the entire class during say a field day event, I usually save JPG+RAW so I can share some pictures quickly, and they are good enough for classroom purposes, and probably for most any other purpose.

cameraf4 Loc: Delaware

Now I did not realize that. The only camera I have that only uses one memory card is my Df. Checked with the manual and, sure enough, you're right. Thanks.

cameraf4 Loc: Delaware

So when I open a NEF in software designed to do that, what I see on my computer screen is really a BITMAP and not a JPG?

BebuLamar

I do agree with you that RAW file can not be seen but all digital image files are 1 and 0's including JPEG or TIFF. So the difference is not because RAW files only 1's and 0's.

cameraf4 Loc: Delaware

Thanks for the "Cliff Notes", Scott. That's pretty much how I understood it. And thanks for the Adobe info. Couldn't do much with the Walgreens story. I only ever shot chromes.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

When you open an NEF in software designed to process that NEF file the software displays on your monitor an RGB image. JPEGs are also displayed as RGB images. What's unique about JPEGs is their method of storing the data; the JPEG format is a compression/archive format.

The RGB image structure we use for photos can be stored in different ways. A TIFF can also store an RGB image. Key to an RGB image is that each pixel has three color channels, Red, Green, and Blue. So a pixel in one of your photos will be described as eg. R = 205, G = 180, B = 75 -- that's a light orange.

Your raw processing software opens your NEF file, processes it and displays an RGB image.

Joe