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Another company goes after gray market products. Good for them.
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Aug 10, 2019 10:28:28   #
John Maher Loc: Northern Virginia
 
I think most of this is ethics -- which are personal, individual, but seem to be shrinking with each generation.

I do not buy "gray" market. Authorized dealers pay and honest importers will not undercut their retailers. It may be impacted by tariffs. I read where Hero is building a new factory outside China for exports to the US and some other countries.

These same ethical standards apply to the seller. If one will knowingly sell "gray" market, one may be less concerned with an accurate description.

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Aug 10, 2019 10:40:19   #
alexol
 
MDI Mainer wrote:
As far as I'm concerned "going after gray market sales" means one thing and one thing only, and that is "artificially manipulating prices to hurt US customers."


100% agree!

Gray market or otherwise has absolutely nothing whatever to do with supporting US jobs, but it IS 100% about price control.

A surprising number of items have wildly inflated prices in the US due to this sort of price control and the lack of understanding by people who don't know the have options. Obviously one of those options is not to buy in the first place, but buying outside the manufacturer preferred channels is another.

Some companies are wonderful to deal with. A few years ago I bought a Panasonic Toughbook from Europe because that particular variant (bigger SSD) wasn't yet available in the US. Asked Panasonic first: yes, of course we will warranty it if needed - it's a Panasonic. Nikon and gray market lenses on the other hand... "See if you can touch your toes - we have a gift for you".

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Aug 10, 2019 12:54:19   #
Glenn Harve
 
Freedom for profit as manufacturers see fit is what drives good product. Why are so many in America now so naive about this most basic thing? How many cameras come from russia? If you can do better, do it.

Reply
 
 
Aug 10, 2019 12:56:08   #
rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
 
alexol wrote:
100% agree!

Gray market or otherwise has absolutely nothing whatever to do with supporting US jobs, but it IS 100% about price control.

A surprising number of items have wildly inflated prices in the US due to this sort of price control and the lack of understanding by people who don't know the have options. Obviously one of those options is not to buy in the first place, but buying outside the manufacturer preferred channels is another.

Some companies are wonderful to deal with. A few years ago I bought a Panasonic Toughbook from Europe because that particular variant (bigger SSD) wasn't yet available in the US. Asked Panasonic first: yes, of course we will warranty it if needed - it's a Panasonic. Nikon and gray market lenses on the other hand... "See if you can touch your toes - we have a gift for you".
img src="https://static.uglyhedgehog.com/images/s... (show quote)


No, it has nothing to do with price controls. It has everything to do with purchasing a USA warranty. Sigma will honor their warranty on a grey market purchase, you just have to send the item back to the region it was purchased in or to Japan. Sigma USA will also honor the warranty, for an additional fee of $250, which is what the warranty would have cost if the purchase was not grey market. So, if you're a gambling person, buy grey and gamble you won't need to use the warranty. Odds are pretty good you won't.
Another option is, if you own Canon or Nikon bodies, just buy Canon or Nikkor lenses. They're mostly better than Sigma anyway.

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Aug 10, 2019 13:01:51   #
rmorrison1116 Loc: Near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania
 
Glenn Harve wrote:
Freedom for profit as manufacturers see fit is what drives good product. Why are so many in America now so naive about this most basic thing? How many cameras come from russia? If you can do better, do it.


Actually, a lot of photography gear is made in Russia. Very little of it is exported to the USA because USA imports this type of merchandise mainly from the two China's and Japan. Russian products are more popular in eastern Europe, Ukraine and Thailand and Indonesia.

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Aug 10, 2019 13:11:09   #
Glenn Harve
 
rmorrison1116 wrote:
Actually, a lot of photography gear is made in Russia. Very little of it is exported to the USA because USA imports this type of merchandise mainly from the two China's and Japan. Russian products are more popular in eastern Europe, Ukraine and Thailand and Indonesia.


And WHY dont more come from russia? Same for any product, be it cars or whatever. WHY dont you buy and use it? Figure that out and you will understand my point.

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Aug 10, 2019 13:35:03   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
billnikon wrote:
Sigma has gone after gray market sales in the US. GOOD FOR THEM. When people buy gray market products, they do so at the expense of those working in the US. Folks who buy gray market, take money from those that work right here in the USA.
So, what has Sigma got to say about buying gray market?
Click on this and read it all.
https://www.sigmaphoto.com/article/important-information-regarding-gray-market-sigma-products/


How in the world do you figure that buying gray market takes money away from those working in the USA?

Do you know what "gray market" means?

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Aug 10, 2019 13:37:07   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Gasman57 wrote:
Why does grey market exist? I honestly believe it's because of price manipulation by the manufacturers. If their price was consistent around the world ( currency adjusted ), there would be no grey market. So they created the problem their addressing. I have no sympathy for them, or any company following this business practice. The warranty should be valid no matter where the product was sold. Just another way to squeeze the last dollar from Americans.


MOST international companies either adjust pricing for the various markets they sell in, or let their dealers establish local prices. At the end of the fiscal year, they are concerned with absolute margins and absolute profits, not exactly how much they make in one market or another.

But because Americans have one of the stronger currencies, and one of the most inflated economies, the local distributors soak us all as if we were rich. Independent importer/distributors are making nice salaries and profits here. If you could somehow get the prices of the same item as sold in 50 different countries, you would see how this works.

At the end of the day, a warranty is a bet by the selling company that you won't need it. If you were to put the difference between a gray market price and an official USA market price into a savings account, and did that for every item you could buy in the gray market, you would have your OWN insurance policy against equipment failure.

Warranties are based on fear of failure. Yes, some things fail, but self-insurance against an occasional failure is ultimately less expensive than paying inflated prices.

Reply
Aug 10, 2019 13:47:16   #
jbk224 Loc: Long Island, NY
 
Price manipulation. Scam. Price control. Extortion. Residency Tax.
How descriptive and how misunderstood.
First let me say the only grey market purchaser here with a clear understanding is poster tvhasben. His logic and reasoning is impeccable.
Price manipulation = Manipulation is the act of artificially inflating or deflating the price of a security(*or product) or otherwise influencing the behavior of the market for personal gain. *my addition*
This usually refers to securities and investment products; but has now entered the lingo of everyday products we purchase.
Scam = a dishonest scheme; a fraud.
Extortion = the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
Residency Tax = Tax residence (also known as fiscal residency, residence for tax purposes, or other, similar terms) is an important concept for all tax payers living and working abroad. It determines how you are treated with regard to taxation in a particular country.
The misunderstanding here is that that the 'product', while the same in production (generally), is not the same where sold. The products manufactured and sold in Japan are serviced at the local facilities in Japan. Are they serviced at a facility that is adjacent to or part of the main manufacturing facility? I don't know. Nikon Corporate is in Japan and services their product.
You don't live in Japan. You live somewhere else in the global community--in this case the USA. How do you know about the product? Where can you put your hands on the product to see how it feels and works? Who can you speak with at the manufacturer to discuss any issues? And, should anything require service or repair..to whom do you send it. Clearly none of the replies are...Japan of course!
In order to import the product to 'your shores', you need people and places to make this happen-- on your shores--not in Japan. When was the last time you set up a business with employees, offices-rented or owned, and distribution warehouses? Assuming you did..was it for free or did it cost you to do so? Let's assume you actually did this in Moline, Illinois. How about you want to sell your product in Japan? You can do it yourself, under your current corporate umbrella or set up a company in Japan to 'do it for you'. Of course this is just a euphemism for another company. It is done this way since the laws of one country are different from another. The result is the same though. Did you do this for free? Nope. It cost. For what? 1st..the same thing it cost you to set up in your own city. The difference is that you are not manufacturing the product in Japan. 2nd...you need to understand the differences in the market and who buys and how they make decisions in Japan..market demographics. You can try and do this in Moline, but the expertise is in Japan..the market to which you want to sell. Is all of this for free? Nope. Extend this to every market area in the world that you would like to sell your products. Oh, I forgot...you are not selling a pill that you take once and it is gone. Or a sponge that you buy and use it till it disintegrates. Or a set of brake pads that need to be changed in 30,000 miles. You make a complex product that is meant to last a 'lifetime' and requires maintenance and may require service. I get it...you want your customer to send it back to Moline, Illinois! How long do you think this global customer will be loyal to your product/brand? Only up until the time they actually need to do this. Or, you can have them send it to a 'local' service agent. One could be a company you control--who's service and quality you control. Or, an 'authorized service agent' that is independent of your company. Now, if it is your company's facility, you can do it for a cost or free. You determine what 'warranty' you will provide for this decision. If it an independent company...do you think they work for free? Do you think that they will provide the same level of service that you could? Hopefully yes; but you have no control.
So, Price Manipulator, who opened a business in Moline, Illinois...and decided to market their product globally; is the cost to do business in Moline only the same as the cost to do business in Japan? Australia? France? South Africa? England? Argentina? Russia? India?
The cost of a product is not only what it costs to manufacture, but the entirety of the costs associated with it's sale and service in locations other than where it is made. 20 years ago you couldn't price and buy over the internet in the same manner you can today. Yes, we are global; and yes, the internet has created more buying information and opportunities, whether here or abroad. Every business that sells a product or service is or should be aware of price competition. Some of us survive and thrive and others go out of business. Every business owner makes the same decisions as do consumers. Some of you have no issue buying Grey Market...just do so fully informed. Most of us do not choose to for various reasons. None better than others. Just good enough. Nobody should judge anyone's buying decisions..just don't try and rationalize your decisions based on completely fallacious facts and 'political reasoning' (making too much $$).
There are so many other reasons why we make our purchasing decisions in the manner we each do. Everyone has their 'price level' at which they decide to pay more or less for something that does have currently unquantifiable differences. Everyone has their 'risk level' at which they are prepared to operate. You who are willing to buy cameras or lenses grey market; are you willing to buy a $75,000 car marketed and serviced in the US, for $55,000 in Poland and bring it back to the US for another $3,000 plus US/State taxes? Let's say you save $12,000 overall. And you can get it serviced in the US, but not for 'free'? Maybe some of you would; but I bet the majority of you would not. Or, closer to home..how about hiring a contractor to build you a kitchen. You got three estimates that ranged from $28,000 to $32,000. And one for $16,000. The group of three all have local places of business with an office or storefront and complete insurances that you probably never considered. The $16,000 guy works from a truck and cellphone, and does he have liability and Worker's Comp? What will you do now? Of course, buyer beware. Make rational decisions based on proper information.
So, like tvhasben has decided to buy grey market regardless of the consequences because he is willing to absorb any issues that may happen; we should all base our decisions on reality and not fabricate reasoning to justify our decisions and blame others for our our choices.
I hope that I have changed some minds so that future discussions are more reasonable.

Reply
Aug 10, 2019 13:50:45   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
jbk224 wrote:
Price manipulation. Scam. Price control. Extortion. Residency Tax.
How descriptive and how misunderstood.
First let me say the only grey market purchaser here with a clear understanding is poster tvhasben. His logic and reasoning is impeccable.
Price manipulation = Manipulation is the act of artificially inflating or deflating the price of a security(*or product) or otherwise influencing the behavior of the market for personal gain. *my addition*
This usually refers to securities and investment products; but has now entered the lingo of everyday products we purchase.
Scam = a dishonest scheme; a fraud.
Extortion = the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
Residency Tax = Tax residence (also known as fiscal residency, residence for tax purposes, or other, similar terms) is an important concept for all tax payers living and working abroad. It determines how you are treated with regard to taxation in a particular country.
The misunderstanding here is that that the 'product', while the same in production (generally), is not the same where sold. The products manufactured and sold in Japan are serviced at the local facilities in Japan. Are they serviced at a facility that is adjacent to or part of the main manufacturing facility? I don't know. Nikon Corporate is in Japan and services their product.
You don't live in Japan. You live somewhere else in the global community--in this case the USA. How do you know about the product? Where can you put your hands on the product to see how it feels and works? Who can you speak with at the manufacturer to discuss any issues? And, should anything require service or repair..to whom do you send it. Clearly none of the replies are...Japan of course!
In order to import the product to 'your shores', you need a people and places to make this happen-- on your shores--not in Japan. When was the last time you set up a business with employees, offices-rented or owned, and distribution warehouses? Assuming you did..was it for free or did it cost you to do so? Let's assume you actually did this in Moline, Illinois. How about you want to sell your product in Japan? You can do it yourself, under your current corporate umbrella or set up a company in Japan to 'do it for you'. Of course this is just a euphemism for another company. It is done this way since the laws of one country are different from another. The result is the same though. Did you do this for free? Nope. It cost. For what? 1st..the same thing it cost you to set up in your own city. The difference is that you are not manufacturing the product in Japan. 2nd...you need to understand the differences in the market and who buys and how they make decisions in Japan..market demographics. You can try and do this in Moline, but the expertise is in Japan..the market to which you want to sell. Is all of this for free? Nope. Extend this to every market area in the world that you would like to sell your products. Oh, I forgot...you are not selling a pill that you take once and it is gone. Or a sponge that you buy and use it till it disintegrates. Or a set of brake pads that need to be changed in 30,000 miles. You make a complex product that is meant to last a 'lifetime' and requires maintenance and may require service. I get it...you want your customer to send it back to Moline, Illinois! How long do you think this global customer will be loyal to your product/brand? Only up until the time they actually need to do this. Or, you can have them send it to a 'local' service agent. One could be a company you control--who's service and quality you control. Or, an 'authorized service agent' that is independent of your company. Now, if it is your company's facility, you can do it for a cost or free. You determine what 'warranty' you will provide for this decision. If it an independent company...do you think they work for free? Do you think that they will provide the same level of service that you could? Hopefully yes; but you have no control.
So, Price Manipulator, who opened a business in Moline, Illinois...and decided to market their product globally; is the cost to do business in Moline only the same as the cost to do business in Japan? Australia? France? South Africa? England? Argentina? Russia? India?
The cost of a product is not only what it costs to manufacture, but the entirety of the costs associated with it's sale and service in locations other than where it is marketed. 20 years ago you couldn't price and buy over the internet in the same manner you can today. Yes, we are global; and yes, the internet has created more buying information and opportunities, whether here or abroad. Every business that sells a product or service is or should be aware of price competition. Some of us survive and thrive and others go out of business. Every business owner makes the same decisions as do consumers. Some of you have no issue buying Grey Market...just do so fully informed. Most of us do not choose to for various reasons. None better than others. Just good enough. Nobody should judge anyone's buying decisions..just don't try and rationalize your decisions based on completely fallacious facts and 'political reasoning' (making too much $$).
There are so many other reasons why we make our purchasing decisions in the manner we each do. Everyone has their 'price level' at which they decide to pay more or less for something that does have currently unquantifiable differences. Everyone has their 'risk level' at which they are prepared to operate. You who are willing to buy cameras or lenses grey market; are you willing to buy a $75,000 car marketed and serviced in the US, for $55,000 in Poland and bring it back to the US for another $3,000 plus US/State taxes? Let's say you save $12,000 overall. And you can get it serviced in the US, but not for 'free'? Maybe some of you would; but I bet the majority of you would not. Or, closer to home..how about hiring a contractor to build you a kitchen. You got three estimates that ranged from $28,000 to $32,000. And one for $16,000. The group of three all have local places of business with an office or storefront and complete insurances that you probably never considered. The $16,000 guy works from a truck and cellphone, and does he have liability and Worker's Comp? What will you do now? Of course, buyer beware. Make rational decisions based on proper information.
So, like tvhasben has decided to buy grey market regardless of the consequences because he is willing to absorb any issues that may happen; we should all base our decisions on reality and not fabricate reasoning to justify our decisions and blame others for our our choices.
I hope that I have changed some minds so that future discussions are more reasonable.
Price manipulation. Scam. Price control. Extortion... (show quote)


What does this ramble have to do with the OP's original premise that gray market takes money away from those who work in the USA?

Reply
Aug 10, 2019 14:09:15   #
Glenn Harve
 
nadelewitz wrote:
What does this ramble have to do with the OP's original premise that gray market takes money away from those who work in the USA?


You can lead a mule to water, but.....

Reply
 
 
Aug 10, 2019 14:13:56   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
I bought a gray market lens in the 70's and it never failed to give me excellent service not requiring ever support or service. Ever since I have been buying second hand which in my case has been very productive and never anything failed. I have issues with a Nikon 18-70 f3.5-4.5 AF-S which is failing to focus but the lens is old enough to justify that. A used one in good condition is only $80 but repairs go to $140. You figure out the math for me!

A gray market product is manufactured under the same plant and under the same conditions than lenses who are imported and offered here with a warranty. Some gray products are not worth it because the price is to close to a genuine import. Others I am sure have experience with gray market products but what I know is that those gray market products do not fail that easily.

I consider ridiculous not to service a gray market product and once I bought a Nikon F in Spain and a few years later I wanted to adjust and lubricate it and Nikon refused to service the camera. I bought the camera from an authorized dealer in Spain. A few years later they advised me that the camera would be service if it was in need of it but I decided not to send it to them and instead the camera was adjusted here locally. I still have the camera and it works without issues.

If it is price control I do not know. If it is imposing a warranty on us I do not know either what I know is that the product is manufactured to the same standards of those imported by the distributor.
I never had anything against buying gray market. We live in a free society after all.

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Aug 10, 2019 14:33:21   #
sirlensalot Loc: Arizona
 
From Sigma's website:

"Product Warranty Registration

Thank you for purchasing a Sigma product, the premier choice for all of your photographic equipment needs. It is our pleasure to offer added value in the form of extended warranty packages for most products purchased through Authorized Sigma USA Dealers. It is important to note that any Sigma extended warranty is valid only on purchases made by residents of the U.S.A. and purchased from an authorized Sigma U.S.A. dealer. Register your product and receive:

1. Full protection. Warranty protection offered by your 1 year international and extended warranties where applicable. EX Lenses come with an additional 3 year extended warranty for a total of 4 years. For any product purchased after May 1, 2009, Non Ex Lenses come with an additional 2 year extended warranty for a total of 3 years. Cameras and Flashes come with only a 1 year international warranty. Sigma offers a 90 day warranty for factory refurbished products. "

So this has now changed? This was taken from a blog site from 2011

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Aug 10, 2019 14:48:47   #
jbk224 Loc: Long Island, NY
 
nadelewitz wrote:
What does this ramble have to do with the OP's original premise that gray market takes money away from those who work in the USA?


If actually read the ramble, you would know it's about the response to the OP. And most of the responses are the same re-hashed common woe me as a victim of market and price manipulation and companies make too much money as it is.
If you agree with the OP, then this is not 'aimed' at you.

Reply
Aug 10, 2019 14:53:49   #
alexol
 
nadelewitz wrote:
What does this ramble have to do with the OP's original premise that gray market takes money away from those who work in the USA?


The ramble has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

I think perhaps that there are number of people in this conversation who are mistaking gray market for counterfeit, clearly two entirely separate animals.

The Sigma nonsense was simply an attempt to apply pressure by playing on ignorance, conjuring up images of Sigma lenses being mistreated etc. Why would anyone mistreat valuable items on which they depend for a living? In the case of Sigma, we're not talking about original Sigma equipment which has failed QA processes, just equipment that has been imported by-passing the agent.

Save some money & skip a US warranty, or spend extra and get the warranty: simply a choice of personal risk acceptance level, hard to see how this affects employment of people in the US.

Buying gray market from outside the US may be a different case re employment in the US.

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