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Wondering about digital projectors and darkroom...
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Jul 3, 2019 13:39:04   #
Anhanga Brasil Loc: Cabo Frio - Brazil
 
burkphoto wrote:
Possible, yes. Economically efficient? Never. Would you like the results? Hell no.

I'm an ex-lab manager who worked in a portrait lab through the transition from film to digital photography. So I know that all the silver halide paper manufacturers evolved their papers to optimize them for short exposure in digital devices such as LED printers, laser printers, light valve printers, etc. In the lab I worked for, we had 40 such devices — various Noritsu mini-labs — in 2008. Each was capable of at least 400, to as many as 600 8x10 inch prints per hour.

While the current silver halide papers will work with old optical printing processes, you wouldn't like the results as much as you would have 25 years ago. Kodak started optimizing their paper for digital printers in the late 1990s.

In any case, using even a 4K digital projector would not provide sufficient resolution to do justice to a digital file. It's optimized for positive image projection, not printing. Control over color would be nearly impossible, since you need to convert a positive image to a negative and add an orange filter to make it look — to the paper — like a color negative. Fog from stray light coming from the fan vents would be another issue. Exposure control? Fuggeddaboudit. At the end of the day, printing from a digital projector would be, in most respects, similar to printing from an enlarger without control over color and exposure.

The finest prints made today are printed from applications like Adobe Lightroom, directly to high-end Canon or Epson inkjet photo printers. Their archival properties are three to five times those of silver halide papers, and their color gamuts (ranges of possible color saturation) are far more appealing, too. Even a 44" Epson is under $6000, is completely stable, and works the first time out of the box, provided you understand color management. (We had three in our lab.) And it works in normal room lighting.
Possible, yes. Economically efficient? Never. Woul... (show quote)


Thank you for the explanation. My main goal is B&W, though.

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Jul 3, 2019 14:50:19   #
rond-photography Loc: Connecticut
 
Anhanga Brasil wrote:
Would it be possible to use a good digital projector
mounted vertically to process a negative digital image
over a photo paper and work it the conventional ways ?
Thanks.


I think it would work. You need to work out a way to totally stop light from the projector and somehow control the exposure on the paper. My last foray into color darkroom used paper that required a few seconds to expose, but not more than 10. And because it was color paper (if I remember correctly from over 40 years ago) you could not have a "safelight" as in the black & white dark room. That means that the projector, which needs to be ventilated and spews light out from more than just the lens, would have to be some how "outside" the room.

I think it is doable, but will be a challenge. Let us know how it works out!

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Jul 3, 2019 14:54:42   #
Bill P
 
I'm with Burk. You are about to depart on something like the Bataan death march.

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Jul 3, 2019 21:48:40   #
Retina Loc: Near Charleston,SC
 
BebuLamar wrote:
The De Vere Enlarger is designed to do just what the OP want. I can't find the price of it though but I think it would be expensive. At 17MP is would make good prints on B&W or RA-4 paper. That's for low volume doing it at home. If you have the volume to do then one of those used Noritsu or Fuji machine that print on RA-4 paper from a digital file would do.

I was so hoping someone would develop a digital negative to fit in the carrier of a traditional enlarger. The De Vere does show up on eBay but certainly not often.
http://de-vere.com/products-504ds-digital-enlarger/

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Jul 4, 2019 01:26:58   #
Bill P
 
I remember back in the day someone was developing a color LCD that would fir in an enlarger, but I think it was a bridge too far.

About the projector, would there be visible scan lines? And, how would you invert the negative and put in the orange mask?

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Jul 4, 2019 13:27:05   #
Anhanga Brasil Loc: Cabo Frio - Brazil
 
rond-photography wrote:
I think it would work. You need to work out a way to totally stop light from the projector and somehow control the exposure on the paper. My last foray into color darkroom used paper that required a few seconds to expose, but not more than 10. And because it was color paper (if I remember correctly from over 40 years ago) you could not have a "safelight" as in the black & white dark room. That means that the projector, which needs to be ventilated and spews light out from more than just the lens, would have to be some how "outside" the room.

I think it is doable, but will be a challenge. Let us know how it works out!
I think it would work. You need to work out a way... (show quote)


As I said, I want B&W (not color). A simple plywood separator could be made.

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Jul 4, 2019 13:29:46   #
Anhanga Brasil Loc: Cabo Frio - Brazil
 
Retina wrote:
I was so hoping someone would develop a digital negative to fit in the carrier of a traditional enlarger. The De Vere does show up on eBay but certainly not often.
http://de-vere.com/products-504ds-digital-enlarger/


In my humble opinion, to get films to be "sensitized" would be even more difficult.
And it would not cut the hands-on part of film processing.

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Jul 4, 2019 13:31:20   #
Anhanga Brasil Loc: Cabo Frio - Brazil
 
Bill P wrote:
I remember back in the day someone was developing a color LCD that would fir in an enlarger, but I think it was a bridge too far.

About the projector, would there be visible scan lines? And, how would you invert the negative and put in the orange mask?


I was thinking B&W. Got to give scan lines some thought, although I think it
does not apply in the case.

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Jul 4, 2019 13:58:22   #
boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander
 
I think it would work. An enlarger is a "projector" of a type. The paper doesn't know how the image got there. So other things being equal in the "darkroom" it should work. Quality will depend upon the quality of the lens in the projector. A quality EL lens can be very expensive.-700$ or more.

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Jul 4, 2019 14:18:52   #
Anhanga Brasil Loc: Cabo Frio - Brazil
 
boberic wrote:
I think it would work. An enlarger is a "projector" of a type. The paper doesn't know how the image got there. So other things being equal in the "darkroom" it should work. Quality will depend upon the quality of the lens in the projector. A quality EL lens can be very expensive.-700$ or more.


But, as a matter of fact, from experimentation comes knowledge (or how-to).
Don't you think Adams and others worked on a trial-and-error basis in the beginning ?
I miss the smell of a darkroom...

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Jul 4, 2019 14:21:55   #
Bill P
 
[quote=boberic]I think it would work. An enlarger is a "projector" of a type.

Yes, it's a projector, but the important thing is the "of a sort." Television pictures are usually broken into scan lines, it's not just one big happy photo. And in some cases the image jitters up and down a scan line or two at a time.

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Jul 4, 2019 14:31:31   #
sloscheider Loc: Minnesota
 
I think it would be fun to give it a try! Have you looked at the pinhole camera trailers people have made? They go straight from reality to print paper and then develop the paper skipping the film/digital medium altogether

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Jul 4, 2019 14:36:39   #
Anhanga Brasil Loc: Cabo Frio - Brazil
 
[quote=Bill P]
boberic wrote:
I think it would work. An enlarger is a "projector" of a type.

Yes, it's a projector, but the important thing is the "of a sort." Television pictures are usually broken into scan lines, it's not just one big happy photo. And in some cases the image jitters up and down a scan line or two at a time.


Yes, I know. And that is what I have to think of.
Other variables could be lumen delivered, time of exposure,
type of paper, and maybe some more.

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Jul 4, 2019 14:39:17   #
Anhanga Brasil Loc: Cabo Frio - Brazil
 
sloscheider wrote:
I think it would be fun to give it a try! Have you looked at the pinhole camera trailers people have made? They go straight from reality to print paper and then develop the paper skipping the film/digital medium altogether


Sure. I know the pinhole principle since I was kid. Dad showed me.

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Jul 4, 2019 14:45:32   #
BebuLamar
 
I don't worry about the exposure time, color of the light just yet. The problem with using a digital projector limited right now to 4K and I am not sure the OP is considering 4K projector. The projector lens isn't designed to be as sharp as an enlarging lens besides it only operates at maximum aperture.

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