Third Party TTL Flashheads - there are almost a dozen out there - which is best?
Mar 16, 2019 11:30:25 #
bpulv
Loc: Buena Park, CA
[quote=E.L.. Shapiro]Electronic Flash Confusion? What to buy?
Electronic flash? I've been intimately involved with electronic flash for a lifetime. I suppose I could write a book on the innards and outsides of the gear and its usages but I will refrain from doing that here- just a short essay for today!
One of my pet peeves is that so many photgraher don't appreciate the potential of good flash technique and many give it a bad rap. Few get into the specifications anymore and just go by the advertised features as to TTL dedication and the obvious mechanics of tilting of the head etc. Manufacturers, distributors, and retailers seldom get into the real specifications such as watt.second output, Beam Candlepower Seconds (BCPS), Effective Candlepower Seconds (ECPS) and actual angles of coverage. Other data like color temperature stability at various outputs are seldom if ever specified. So...even for someone like me, who is well initiated into flash technology, it's had to compare the value of one unit against another without actually testing them out or gleaning first-hand experience from other users.
Some makers publish guide numbers but those are oftentimes not all that telling about the real effective output under various conditions. If folks are using TTL exp[opsure determination, the guide number may not have any substantive meaning.
Used to be that flash gear that was domestically made, and imports for Japan and Germany had good reliable electronics and those made in China and some other countries in Asia were either inferior or suffered from erratic quality control- some were good and some were not. Nowadays, many of the time-honored brands are subcontracted to plants in China and other countries and it may be surprising to some but their Canon Speedlights s are made in China. Many of the Chineses makers that market under their own names have since cleaned up their QC acts and the equipment is decent enough. It may also be surprising to some that if the were to open up and take apart their expensive name brand strobes (not recommended) - guess where the innards are made?
So...what's hot and what's not? Most of the popular units pack about 80 to 100 watt/seconds (MAX). Many have models that are dedicated to the TTL system of popular digital cameras. They are not super powerful but they gain a little more punch in that they have small linear flash tubes backed up by a mirror-like reflector. Used to be that re really cheap ones were poorly constructed and even somewhat dangerous as to shock hazard but nowadays, to be legally exported into most European or North American Countries they need safety approval from the credentialed authorities, so the really cheap ones just break down sooner or work erratically but they won't blow up or kill anyone.
Compared to some of the older fully manual strobes, I think most of them are rather expensive toys, nonetheless, I use them for certain kinds of work and they do perform surprisingly well if used with a bit of lighting savvy. My experience with Nikon and Canon camera and Speedlight combination have been alright. I like what I see in the Godox line, especially the ones with interchangeable reflectors, user changeable flash tubes and external power supplies.
What you purchase should depend on the usage you are going to apply and subject it to. If you are a professional or a heavy-duty user, I might recommend one of the more elite units made by Quantum (Q-Flash), Lumadyne, Metz and the aforementioned top-of-the-line Godox. These are more expensive but they will stand up to continual usage and long duty cycles. With interchangeable reflectors, you can employ real wide angle and telephoto coverage, use the bare bulb for omnidirectional lighting, and carry spare flash tubes in the event of failure or breakage. Some accessory reflectors have modeling lights or are specially designed to maximize output for umbrella usage.
Moneywise, other than intrinsic quality and good engineering you are going to be paying or features such as High-Speed Synchronization, Auto-Zoom, various and sundry command features, extremely short recycling times, stroboscopic effects, facilities for external battery packs and booster accessories. My advice is don't buy features you don't need. To do any kind of bounce technique you are going to need some "swivel" but you won't need to bend the thing into a pretzel-like shape or buy that contraption that swivels itself.
Other attributes to look for is enough power on manual mode to work decently with modifiers that absorb some of the output, and accurate ready lights that indicate at least 85% full charge before lighting up.
As far as other brands, I know that Sunpack has been in the flash business forever and have a good reputation. Yonguno seems to be coming up in the world but I have no experience with them but have not heard anything bad. Private and store brand may be decent enough but hopefully, they carry some kind of warranty. The very inexpensive ones may be disappointing as to performance and longevity
With all the Speedlight types, you need to be aware of certain limitations and maintenance requirements. As I alluded to before, you are dealing with a comparatively small linear flash tube in a confined space. Continually rapid firing can shorten the life of the flash tube and even the internal circuitry due to overheating. HHS units are more likely to hold up long term in continuous rapid firing usages. The larger flash tubes in the interchangeable reflector heads can more easily cope with heat issues in that the tube itself is housed in a helical envelope and has more surface to air space.
You can protect your investment in the better flash gear of you charge batteries properly, never leave batteries in dormant gear in long term storage, keep battery compartments and contacts clean, and make certain that the reflectors and front plastic lens does not become discolored.
I hope this helps.[/quote]
Thank you.
Electronic flash? I've been intimately involved with electronic flash for a lifetime. I suppose I could write a book on the innards and outsides of the gear and its usages but I will refrain from doing that here- just a short essay for today!
One of my pet peeves is that so many photgraher don't appreciate the potential of good flash technique and many give it a bad rap. Few get into the specifications anymore and just go by the advertised features as to TTL dedication and the obvious mechanics of tilting of the head etc. Manufacturers, distributors, and retailers seldom get into the real specifications such as watt.second output, Beam Candlepower Seconds (BCPS), Effective Candlepower Seconds (ECPS) and actual angles of coverage. Other data like color temperature stability at various outputs are seldom if ever specified. So...even for someone like me, who is well initiated into flash technology, it's had to compare the value of one unit against another without actually testing them out or gleaning first-hand experience from other users.
Some makers publish guide numbers but those are oftentimes not all that telling about the real effective output under various conditions. If folks are using TTL exp[opsure determination, the guide number may not have any substantive meaning.
Used to be that flash gear that was domestically made, and imports for Japan and Germany had good reliable electronics and those made in China and some other countries in Asia were either inferior or suffered from erratic quality control- some were good and some were not. Nowadays, many of the time-honored brands are subcontracted to plants in China and other countries and it may be surprising to some but their Canon Speedlights s are made in China. Many of the Chineses makers that market under their own names have since cleaned up their QC acts and the equipment is decent enough. It may also be surprising to some that if the were to open up and take apart their expensive name brand strobes (not recommended) - guess where the innards are made?
So...what's hot and what's not? Most of the popular units pack about 80 to 100 watt/seconds (MAX). Many have models that are dedicated to the TTL system of popular digital cameras. They are not super powerful but they gain a little more punch in that they have small linear flash tubes backed up by a mirror-like reflector. Used to be that re really cheap ones were poorly constructed and even somewhat dangerous as to shock hazard but nowadays, to be legally exported into most European or North American Countries they need safety approval from the credentialed authorities, so the really cheap ones just break down sooner or work erratically but they won't blow up or kill anyone.
Compared to some of the older fully manual strobes, I think most of them are rather expensive toys, nonetheless, I use them for certain kinds of work and they do perform surprisingly well if used with a bit of lighting savvy. My experience with Nikon and Canon camera and Speedlight combination have been alright. I like what I see in the Godox line, especially the ones with interchangeable reflectors, user changeable flash tubes and external power supplies.
What you purchase should depend on the usage you are going to apply and subject it to. If you are a professional or a heavy-duty user, I might recommend one of the more elite units made by Quantum (Q-Flash), Lumadyne, Metz and the aforementioned top-of-the-line Godox. These are more expensive but they will stand up to continual usage and long duty cycles. With interchangeable reflectors, you can employ real wide angle and telephoto coverage, use the bare bulb for omnidirectional lighting, and carry spare flash tubes in the event of failure or breakage. Some accessory reflectors have modeling lights or are specially designed to maximize output for umbrella usage.
Moneywise, other than intrinsic quality and good engineering you are going to be paying or features such as High-Speed Synchronization, Auto-Zoom, various and sundry command features, extremely short recycling times, stroboscopic effects, facilities for external battery packs and booster accessories. My advice is don't buy features you don't need. To do any kind of bounce technique you are going to need some "swivel" but you won't need to bend the thing into a pretzel-like shape or buy that contraption that swivels itself.
Other attributes to look for is enough power on manual mode to work decently with modifiers that absorb some of the output, and accurate ready lights that indicate at least 85% full charge before lighting up.
As far as other brands, I know that Sunpack has been in the flash business forever and have a good reputation. Yonguno seems to be coming up in the world but I have no experience with them but have not heard anything bad. Private and store brand may be decent enough but hopefully, they carry some kind of warranty. The very inexpensive ones may be disappointing as to performance and longevity
With all the Speedlight types, you need to be aware of certain limitations and maintenance requirements. As I alluded to before, you are dealing with a comparatively small linear flash tube in a confined space. Continually rapid firing can shorten the life of the flash tube and even the internal circuitry due to overheating. HHS units are more likely to hold up long term in continuous rapid firing usages. The larger flash tubes in the interchangeable reflector heads can more easily cope with heat issues in that the tube itself is housed in a helical envelope and has more surface to air space.
You can protect your investment in the better flash gear of you charge batteries properly, never leave batteries in dormant gear in long term storage, keep battery compartments and contacts clean, and make certain that the reflectors and front plastic lens does not become discolored.
I hope this helps.[/quote]
Thank you.
Mar 16, 2019 12:12:55 #
aphelps wrote [/quote]
"Thank you for your comments and sharing your knowledge. On watt-seconds I have seen it referenced as watt*seconds and w/s. W/s watts per second while w*s is total watts over one second, very different measures. Which is correct"?
Watt-Seconds (w-s) IS NOT LIGHT.
The accepted industry term for the amount of energy stored in the main discharge capacitor of an electronic flash unit is watt-seconds also referred to a Joules.
Watt-seconds is related to power pack light output, but many other factors affect you real output including efficiency of the internal electronic components, design of the lamphead; the charisaterics of the flash tube and reflector and the length of any connecting cables between an external pack and the lamphead.
LIGHT CAN NOT BE DENOTED IN WATT.SECONDS. The light output of a flash unit is best stated in terms of Beam Candlepower Seconds , however, watt.seconds are necessary to communicate how powerful a given flash power supply is. All things being equal, a power supply of twice the w-s rating will produce twice the light of the smaller unit. In other words, when using the same lamphead and reflector, a 800 w-s power supply would produce one f/stop more that a 400 w-s power supply.
Official Notations: watt-second (W.s or Ws) 1 watt-second is the equivalent of 1 watt sustained for 1 second.
In the case of Speedlights much of this is moot in that theses ratings are not specified by the makers. BCPS rating are determined under laboratory conditions with special flash meters. The apply to the flash unit with the original reflector/flash tube combination at a given angle of coverage. This data is especially significant if the power supply and the lamphead are separate components as in larger commercial studio systems.
An average Speedlight that claims a Guide Number of 100 at ISO 100 is probably around 1500 BCPS. An average "old school" two-piece strobe at 100 W.s averages about 2500 BCPS. That's why I like the older more traditional designs. Theses also have larger lamp heads and yield softer and more even light over a wider angle of coverage.
"Thank you for your comments and sharing your knowledge. On watt-seconds I have seen it referenced as watt*seconds and w/s. W/s watts per second while w*s is total watts over one second, very different measures. Which is correct"?
Watt-Seconds (w-s) IS NOT LIGHT.
The accepted industry term for the amount of energy stored in the main discharge capacitor of an electronic flash unit is watt-seconds also referred to a Joules.
Watt-seconds is related to power pack light output, but many other factors affect you real output including efficiency of the internal electronic components, design of the lamphead; the charisaterics of the flash tube and reflector and the length of any connecting cables between an external pack and the lamphead.
LIGHT CAN NOT BE DENOTED IN WATT.SECONDS. The light output of a flash unit is best stated in terms of Beam Candlepower Seconds , however, watt.seconds are necessary to communicate how powerful a given flash power supply is. All things being equal, a power supply of twice the w-s rating will produce twice the light of the smaller unit. In other words, when using the same lamphead and reflector, a 800 w-s power supply would produce one f/stop more that a 400 w-s power supply.
Official Notations: watt-second (W.s or Ws) 1 watt-second is the equivalent of 1 watt sustained for 1 second.
In the case of Speedlights much of this is moot in that theses ratings are not specified by the makers. BCPS rating are determined under laboratory conditions with special flash meters. The apply to the flash unit with the original reflector/flash tube combination at a given angle of coverage. This data is especially significant if the power supply and the lamphead are separate components as in larger commercial studio systems.
An average Speedlight that claims a Guide Number of 100 at ISO 100 is probably around 1500 BCPS. An average "old school" two-piece strobe at 100 W.s averages about 2500 BCPS. That's why I like the older more traditional designs. Theses also have larger lamp heads and yield softer and more even light over a wider angle of coverage.
Mar 16, 2019 13:22:28 #
twice_shooter wrote:
I agree. Have it. Great flash and very reasonably priced.
Yes, I know, Twice … the Godox Thinklite lists at just $110 … an easy buy!!!
Mar 16, 2019 13:30:27 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
aphelps wrote
"Thank you for your comments and sharing your knowledge. On watt-seconds I have seen it referenced as watt*seconds and w/s. W/s watts per second while w*s is total watts over one second, very different measures. Which is correct"?
Watt-Seconds (w-s) IS NOT LIGHT.
The accepted industry term for the amount of energy stored in the main discharge capacitor of an electronic flash unit is watt-seconds also referred to a Joules.
Watt-seconds is related to power pack light output, but many other factors affect you real output including efficiency of the internal electronic components, design of the lamphead; the charisaterics of the flash tube and reflector and the length of any connecting cables between an external pack and the lamphead.
LIGHT CAN NOT BE DENOTED IN WATT.SECONDS. The light output of a flash unit is best stated in terms of Beam Candlepower Seconds , however, watt.seconds are necessary to communicate how powerful a given flash power supply is. All things being equal, a power supply of twice the w-s rating will produce twice the light of the smaller unit. In other words, when using the same lamphead and reflector, a 800 w-s power supply would produce one f/stop more that a 400 w-s power supply.
Official Notations: watt-second (W.s or Ws) 1 watt-second is the equivalent of 1 watt sustained for 1 second.
In the case of Speedlights much of this is moot in that theses ratings are not specified by the makers. BCPS rating are determined under laboratory conditions with special flash meters. The apply to the flash unit with the original reflector/flash tube combination at a given angle of coverage. This data is especially significant if the power supply and the lamphead are separate components as in larger commercial studio systems.
An average Speedlight that claims a Guide Number of 100 at ISO 100 is probably around 1500 BCPS. An average "old school" two-piece strobe at 100 W.s averages about 2500 BCPS. That's why I like the older more traditional designs. Theses also have larger lamp heads and yield softer and more even light over a wider angle of coverage.[/quote]
Thanks for all that info, Ed … not sure these older designs will fit the bill, tho' - as THIS post is about TTL on-camera flash-heads ….
Mar 16, 2019 14:04:47 #
Chris T wrote:
The extensive set of brands, which offer this capa... (show quote)
Specifically that list: The top quality award goes to Metz 2nd place to Godox . Not on your list: Profoto - excellent quality but the price reflects that. Then there is obviously the gaggle of more studio flash lights
Personally I use a Metz 64 as the on-camera flash on my Nikon and is is fully compatible and way nicer than Nikon Speedlights while being a little bit cheaper (about $100 less) and I have a couple of Godox 360 TTL strobes for more power and flexibility when needed - I have the Godox XPro controller that makes multi strobe setups a lot easier and intuitive than most other radio systems
Mar 16, 2019 14:09:08 #
Chris T wrote:
The extensive set of brands, which offer this capa... (show quote)
I use Yongnuo on my Pentax and like it, works very well. I also had one for my Nikons
Mar 16, 2019 14:25:44 #
ChristianHJensen wrote:
Specifically that list: The top quality award goe... (show quote)
Sounds as though you're all set, then, Chris …
I think Metz makes the most powerful units, Chris, but they may not be as effective as the latest on-camera TTL units from Godox, Nissan, and Yongnuo …
Mar 16, 2019 14:28:10 #
WayneL wrote:
I use Yongnuo on my Pentax and like it, works very well. I also had one for my Nikons
Good, Wayne … glad to see you're happy with the Yongnuo units - since they're quite possibly, the cheapest!
Mar 16, 2019 14:41:59 #
Bear in mind that some of the Chinese imports are available with different names from different retailers and/or in different countries. For example both Adorama and B&H have brands that are exclusive to them under their house brand name only, but under other name elsewhere.
I've never had the need to memorize the whole who's on first list, but perhaps someone here can help.
I've never had the need to memorize the whole who's on first list, but perhaps someone here can help.
Mar 16, 2019 14:45:17 #
Chris T wrote:
Sounds as though you're all set, then, Chris …
I think Metz makes the most powerful units, Chris, but they may not be as effective as the latest on-camera TTL units from Godox, Nissan, and Yongnuo …
I think Metz makes the most powerful units, Chris, but they may not be as effective as the latest on-camera TTL units from Godox, Nissan, and Yongnuo …
Well - there is not much comparison - the Metz is most certainly a higher quality than the Godox and musc higher than the Nissan, youngnuo's etc and in terms of power has some of the most powerful speedlights available - I am not sure what you mean by "effective". Metz has been an absolute top brand in speedlites for a very long time and the company really knows what it is doing -= add to that good old fashioned German engineering and manufacturing and you have the reason for the longstanding leadership in that world. The difference to the China brands is quite substantial
Christian - NOT Chris
Mar 16, 2019 14:51:35 #
Bill P wrote:
Bear in mind that some of the Chinese imports are available with different names from different retailers and/or in different countries. For example both Adorama and B&H have brands that are exclusive to them under their house brand name only, but under other name elsewhere.
I've never had the need to memorize the whole who's on first list, but perhaps someone here can help.
I've never had the need to memorize the whole who's on first list, but perhaps someone here can help.
No need to memorize them, Bill - I listed all nine offered by B&H in the lead post!
Mar 16, 2019 15:14:14 #
Chris T wrote:
No need to memorize them, Bill - I listed all nine offered by B&H in the lead post!
Actually you did not - you left out some significant players from your list: Profoto, the various camera brands (Nikon, Canon, etc) as well as a bunch of other cheap brands - all carried by B&H
Mar 16, 2019 15:51:57 #
ChristianHJensen wrote:
Actually you did not - you left out some significant players from your list: Profoto, the various camera brands (Nikon, Canon, etc) as well as a bunch of other cheap brands - all carried by B&H
I beg your pudding, Chris?
THIS is my Lead Post:
The extensive set of brands, which offer this capability - are quite staggering! A recent browse in the B&H Catalogue reveals at least nine, and I'm sure there are many more. The features, also - range widely, from tilt beyond the standard 90 degrees, to fixed head units. Then there are the coverage ranges. It can be quite confusing. Brands include Metz, Godox, Nissan, Phottix, Yongnuo, Bolt, Sigma, Sunpak & Bower.
Is there a shortcut way to sort it all out? … Certain brands to ignore, or ones to go straight to - ignoring all the others - no matter what the cost? … Or, is there a better way, to wind up with a satisfactory unit?
Mar 16, 2019 16:27:36 #
Chris T wrote:
Good, Wayne … glad to see you're happy with the Yongnuo units - since they're quite possibly, the cheapest!
I think I paid around $75 -85 for mine , but don't let the cheap price fool you they are made very good for that price.
Mar 16, 2019 16:44:19 #
WayneL wrote:
I think I paid around $75 -85 for mine , but don't let the cheap price fool you they are made very good for that price.
Oh, I wouldn't, Wayne … they all look good to me!!!
These are list prices - mind - of all Yongnuo TTL Flash-heads:
YN-568 EX III - (cheapest) $97
YN-685 $104.45
YN-600 EX RT II - $110
YN-968 $135.99
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