tdekany Loc: Oregon

I didn’t say that they didn’t train. I am saying that the average person will never make it to the top no matter how much they train. Gifted people do. If your theory was correct, that all one needed was proper training, we would have very few normal people. Have you ever met a very strong person? Do you think Franco Colombo trainer harder than Arnold Schwarzenegger? The answer is no. Yet Franco Colombo was way stronger than Arnold. Even though Franco was much smaller.

Do you think that with enough training, your photos would be admired like Art Wolfe’s or AA’s?

Or that you would be as good as Tom Brady? Or as fast as Usane Bolt?

Why don’t you read up on Lewis Hamilton. His early years as a little kid winning go cart races against much better go carts. How did that happen?

If you think that all one needs is proper training to be the best, I have a a few rain forests to sell you in Eastern Oregon.

scsdesphotography Loc: Southeastern Michigan

First, let's say that calling someone a craftperson is not a sign of devolution, it is an honor. In fact most people who are assigned that title are very artful in what they do. Everyone has to earn a living, artist or not. Beethoven did not earn a living writing nine symphonies, he wrote a truckload of what was called back then incidental or house music. In todays world critics would likely say, 'It's a shame that a talent like Beethoven has to demean himself by becoming a pop music hack, just to get by, tsk, tsk.' So, no, that's just part of the human condition. Besides it's likely the photographer cannot keep their art out of any job, no matter how directed or mundane.

scsdesphotography Loc: Southeastern Michigan

Wow, you and I clearly disagree on basic definitions. In my opinion you are trivializing picture hanging skills. How does drilling a hole, putting in an anchor and a screw in a plaster wall compare to just using a hammer and a nail? are they equivalent non crafts? And if your interior decorator is ignorant of the art of arranging objects, I think you should hire someone else!

From the last sentence in the second paragraph I guess you consider yourself to be a shutterbug, not a photographer. But why are you doing all that effort with dials, software and sliders? The only reason would be to change a digital image into something that reflects your vision of that reality, and that would make you a photographer, which makes you an artist and your pictures might even reach the definition of being a photograph, surprise! So, what are you doing, just making pictures or are you making art?

btbg

Not true. My father was a craftsman, not an artist. He was a contractor who built custom homes. We did all of the work ourselves except for electical, plumbing and masonry.

He could build anything the client gave him a picture of and was frequently hired to do custom finish work.

It wasn't art. It was a craft. The two are not necessarily related. He did beautiful work, but it still wasn't art.

Craftsmanship is skill at a craft, it may or may not have anything to do with art.

MrMophoto Loc: Rhode Island "The biggest little"

It seems to me that the view of what an artist is is rather narrow. I was a finish carpenter for over ten years and had a reputation for design/build. I designed many fireplace mantles, staircases and kitchens, and then built (installed) them. To me it was an art, I was given a problem (create something that my customer had in mind) then I had to build it. An artist does essentially the same thing, they have a problem they need to solve (I have an idea about how to best present a likeness of family I've been hired to photograph, now I have to use lighting, backgrounds, etc to product that portrait of the family)
Don't get confused by the use of the term craftsman when talking about a plumber or electrician, that's a hold over from a time when these were considered highly skilled persons. Not that their work isn't highly skilled, it certainly is, it's just not aesthetically oriented. However those professions do require a lot of creative thinking, more so than most people realize. Today as a former carpenter, a teacher, photographer and artist, I still admire the trades and how every job requires creative problem solving.

artBob Loc: Near Chicago

It would be of great interest and likely learning to know why posters feel a personal need to discuss this.

"The world" seems not to care much, audiences, whether Popular Art/Photography, Commercial Art/Photography, Kitsch ('Low brow") Art/Photography, or Fine Art/Photography—each have their definitions and arguments.

Each of us should know the audience we want, how to get there (if not already there), what amount of technical skill, of self expression, of knowledge of our world are required.

I had classical Fine Art training. I try to achieve the ideals of Content, Concept, and Form. I don't much care what other artists think about the category of my work. I just fight for its understanding and existence.

Attached are three works. Each has been published, exhibited, or purchased by a collector. As my craftsmanship increased, so did my concepts and expression. However, early lack of high level craftsmanship did not prevent the first photo from being considered good enough for publication and showing. We use the craftsmanship we have to express an idea or emotion.

(Download)


(Download)


(Download)

srt101fan

srt101fan

Good ole "Oly"; are they still around?

dsmeltz Loc: Philadelphia

In sports there are certain physical attributes which allow the potential for excellence in that particular sport..... Given training. There are millions of people with the same attributes as Schwarzenegger, Brady, Bolt, or the Kenyans who keep winning marathons. The differentiating factor is not anything inborn. It is training, timing, support and luck.

So yes anyone with the attributes will excel with the proper training and support. I thought we settled the whole divine right of kings thing long ago. The reason you often see a lot of excellent athletes in a given sport coming from small geographical areas or specific training schools is not a coincidence of the gene pool. It is because of an existing training and support infrastructure. Like Mozart.

If no one ever comes up to a child and says "Here see how far you can throw this ball", there is not discovery of a potential. There are millions with potential. In fact everyone has a potential for something great. Most never find it. It is the sad nature of things. It is not inborn talent. It is the human condition.

scsdesphotography Loc: Southeastern Michigan

Artist take reality and express it in a medium of their choice. The art produced is a representation of reality without actually being the reality. The art reflects the artist (emotional) view of that reality. Your image does not actually represent what the model looked like, but it does represent your emotional view of that person's face. In essence it's all about her eyes, the face is less important (your view). And since your image communicates that, it fits the definition of a photograph, which makes it art, which makes you a photographer and that makes you an artist.

scsdesphotography Loc: Southeastern Michigan

Bob, it's good to talk about these things relative to your photography. The photographer's philosophy is just as important a tool in the process of producing images as is the hardware and the software. Sure there are some out there for whom taking pictures is an easy way to make a few bucks, but the rest of us pursue photography because we have a passion for expressing ourselves through our photographs. That passion both creates and informs our philosophy.

artBob Loc: Near Chicago

Agreed. How do the passion/technique, "art"/"craft" play out for you as you work?

[For others-- here is scsdesphotography's previous input on the subject, a good one, I think.]
"Artist take reality and express it in a medium of their choice. The art produced is a representation of reality without actually being the reality. The art reflects the artist (emotional) view of that reality. Your image does not actually represent what the model looked like, but it does represent your emotional view of that person's face. In essence it's all about her eyes, the face is less important (your view). And since your image communicates that, it fits the definition of a photograph, which makes it art, which makes you a photographer and that makes you an artist."

tdekany Loc: Oregon

Self thought. Out of so many great ones. https://gfwilliams.net

So according to you, you could easily match his quality.

scsdesphotography Loc: Southeastern Michigan

When I got pushed into serious photography, (I was planning to upgrade my Minolta Z10 P&S to another P&S with more megapixels. We were at Costco and my wife said, "if you're going tp buy a new camera, get a real one!", so I bought a Nikon D80 kit), I didn't think of photography in those terms (craft and art). I did have a passion for 'taking pictures,' but I didn't even know that 'till I produced that first photograph that made me feel so good I was almost tingly. My wife and I agreed that it was frame worthy.

We were on vacation with friends in Sedona, Arizona (2007). One day we decided to drive up Schenbly "road," only four wheel drives allowed. As we were twisting and turning up the rocky path through those huge red rocks we encountered a curve that brought the entire valley into view. I yelled "stop" to my friend in the drivers seat. Out the door I went, camera in hand, ran back 20 yards to the bend in the road and fired off 6 frames. Back at our rental house I pulled the pics up on my laptop, when I got to one of the images of the six I just stopped, after a moment my friend turned to me and said, "that's the one!" And it was.

The D80 was my first SLR, it was covered with mysterious buttons and dials and it had removable lenses. For months I shot in full auto, then my daughter-in-law made fun of me saying, "You've turned your $1000 camera into a $50 P&S!" So after that I began shooting in shutter priority, which required me to turn a dial to get proper exposure. I was still trying to figure out composition and mainly get focusing and hand holding down. That was me learning the craft part of photography. Which was where I was at when we went to Sedona.

In my mind, even though I had not yet mastered my equipment, and even though I didn't have an imaging philosophy to guide me, I had accidently got it all right. The thing that got me was, that when I looked out the window, I had an image in my mind of what that picture should look like. The image on the screen was exactly what I "saw." Not only that, the feeling I got from that picture was the same feeling I had when I was actually standing on the road and looking over the valley. It was at that moment that I realized 'Hey I can do this!" Today I look back and count that as my first "real" photograph. I was transitioning from the craft of photography to the art of photography.

So, I'm attaching two images. The first one is "the" photograph, titled "Heart of Sedona." The second one is from a set I did for an advanced portrait class I took last year. I'm including it just to show where I'm at 11 years later. It's titled "Love in the wind"

Heart of Sedona


Love in the wind

artBob Loc: Near Chicago

Great story, and illustrates your points, mine, and many others.
First and foremost, art is in the mind of the creator. As you wrote, you "saw" something (perhaps due to an unconscious, genetic talent). You cranked off 6 variations. Later, you found the one that had the essence of your experience, a personal one likely coupled to a general human one. It's interesting that the camera "saw" the important stuff only 18% of the time.
The second point is that craft is important, and a near continual learning experience. It does not take stupendous craftsmanship (let's say as you now possess) to create good art—just appropriate craftsmanship. As craft gets better, so do Art opportunities. Both our mind's awareness and our craft can continually grow.
It is also true that some photographers, artists, musicians just "mail it in," getting to a certain level and settling in, content.
Thank you for adding so much to the discussion.