RickL Loc: Vail, Az

My college art teacher used to say”everything we create is art, the only question that has to be satisfied is whether it is good or bad!” Not a bad rule

Rick

Earnest Botello Loc: Hockley, Texas

Artists and craftsmen go hand in hand, both create, you can't be one without the other.

DebAnn Loc: Toronto

Yes, but they say that "art is in the eye of the beholder". Not a bad point either!

dsmeltz Loc: Philadelphia

What was the personal attack? You stated as fact something that is not fact. I corrected you. Do you always feel attacked in the face of facts? Or is it that you prefer not to admit when you are wrong?

There exists no proof that "prodigies" or "inborn talent"exist absent training and craft. You have offered none.

RickL Loc: Vail, Az

I lived in Italy and was blessed to spend time with their top painters. They all started out in the artists trade schools. They began sweeping floors and stretching canvas and coating the canvas with gesso. They then learned basic pencil drawing and mixed the colors for the masters and so on. They used to meet in our studio, declare a subject and the challenge was to complete the painting in 15 minutes. They had learned their craft over years of training and then were able to express their creativity. The paintings, sold for thousands

As a teen, my photography came under their practiced eye. Since I did all my own lab work I was blessed to learn my craft under their practiced eye. Was a great experience


Rick

dsmeltz Loc: Philadelphia

Just like da Vinci and Michelangelo.

schaut

I started out with very little, and inexpensive equipment. I do not even now have lots of money to spend on expensive "up to speed" lenses or gadgets. When i was a beginner, i accomplished things with my little Oly compact and cardboard tubes, or reversing lenses, or even using rocks and leaves to steady my camera to get a shot! Had a number of compliments that encouraged me at the time to forge onward and upward, and i appreciate that very much. Most of them were "you took THIS shot with THAT camera?" Then i bought a few things that made it so i wouldn't HAVE to use a cardboard tube, rocks, glue, chewing gum, etc. Very convenient! To make a long story short, even though some of these saved me work, i missed being creative with my "inferior" equipment. No, i didn't go back from my 7D and 50D to the little Oly compact i used at the first, but there's still something that turns me on about having to be creative with what i'm using, i.e. going ouside the bounds or limits of what i'm presently using to create good images. I think that involves "artistry" to a degree; the ability to take what you have and create something that some think you shouldn't be able to, or to create a mistake into something beautiful!
If i were working with another medium such as oil paints or clay, i would be able to use my hands to manipulate my "mistakes" into beauty. A camera and photo equipment is more difficult that way because you can't mold it or shove it around unless you're into Photoshop heavily. That being said, there are a lot of thin lines of definition between art and craft. I don't want to destroy creativity by buying so much equipment that it does everything for me and destroys creativity. Keeping your sense of creativity without being overcome by technical buzz is a SKILL in itself!
We all have to find our own definitions and boundaries as to whether and to what degree we want to be an artist or craftsman. There are some artists who don't have the gift of working with craftsmans tools, and there are some craftsmen who are unable to work outside a straight line. It's good to be able to do some of both to accomplish good photography. Some do their own printing or mounting, etc., some don't. A craftsman might get into printing more than some one who wants or needs to be an artist. Both have their talents and gifts.
I could go on with this for a very long time, but i will wrap it up with the statement that artistry and craftsmanship are subjective to the individual. There is a variety of balances according to you and your preferences. Its one of those subjects with which we could fill the ocean! For ME, the term "artistry" evokes a thought of being creative or making something new (inventive?), and craftsman gives me the implied meaning of producing the created thing to (physical) perfection for a use. (A creative craftsman would be one who creates a new use for an old machine, or makes it do what it does better). The artist may not look for immediate perfection, but for the expression. The craftsman will look for the perfection and a way to do it efficiently!
So get out there, CREATE, and perfect your CRAFT!!

traderjohn Loc: New York City

Nah. Technique is casting the perfect fly on the Beaver Kill.

ChristianHJensen

I would wholeheartedly disagree. You have a lot of artists and "artists" who do not even have good basic skills. That goes for photography, carpentry, painting, whatever. Some of these artists can even create stunning visual art despite their lack of (and maybe sometimes exactly because of their lack of) with little to no basic skills in the artform. Sure some of it is maybe mostly based on luck.............................but soemtimes there is a clear vision that the artist has been able to create even with little skill.

And then you also see master craftsmen that cannot produce a single piece of art in the classic sense. Sure they produce flawless products - but that is precisely what they are - products - not art. In photography that is often found in product photography - especially commercial product photography. One of my close friends have a lifelong business doing product photography (and I was lucky enough to learn loads of technique from him) but he certainly would not call any of that art - he was an extremely sought after product photographer though. He also at times got more artsy assignments - he mostly farmed those out (I got some of them while I was in grad school and it was a superb side gig) as it really was outside his focus area - no pun intended.

ChristianHJensen

And the art is to come up with new fly pattern that the craftsman can tie

artBob Loc: Near Chicago

"Art"? There is kitch art, commercial art, decorative art, and fine art. Photography exists in every one of these categories. Your photo, for example, would be called "Decorative Art" or "Popular Art." Fine Art has to hit harder at the era and dig deeper into the maker.
It might help to think of "Music" as parallel to "Art," each having manifestations from rank amateur to elevated considerations of the human condition.
The concerns of "craft" are similar in both fields. You will never be able to pin down the exact boundaries.

Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb

AS said before The craftsman can make a technically perfectly sharp, perfect color etc. but, look crapy asa it has no eye appeal. An artist can put together a great picture and not be clear or something. I is the combination that is a good picture.

dsmeltz Loc: Philadelphia

One of my favorite books "Kitsch: The World of Bad Taste" Got it for a friend of mine as a birthday gift. He was a vary sartorial guy. I once asked him if it would be OK for me to wear white pants after Labor Day. He said "Certainly! It is fine. As long as you don't mind people laughing at you."

To drive home the point of the gift, I left the receipt sticking up out of the pages as a bookmark.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Sometimes I wonder if this is actually a PHOTOGRAPHY forum or a site more dedicated to semantics, and philosophy.

The problem for me is I don't necessarily like to label photographers or folks in general. My philosophy is simply to look at a photographer's work and decide for yourself if it is art, craft or just a newfangled product of digital technology.

My common sense theory is that photography is too much of a technological medium for the "craft" aspects to be ignored. If one does not have a command of the technology it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to apply one's artistic talents, providing they have those talents or leanings. You can have all the fertile imagination in the word and all the best intentions but if you can't utilize the technology, tools, and methodologies that facilitate materializing your concepts in a tangible image, you will experience a great deal of frustration. The first step is becoming a competent technician.

Before there can be art, there needs to be talent. You can't teach or learn talent- it's inborn! It can be discovered encouraged, nurtured, and developed- some folks have it and some folks don't. Some of us are VISUALS, we learn better by what we SEE and we express ourselves visually. Others are AUDITORY, they learn to perceive concepts more readily from what the hear or read and tend to express themselves verbally or litterelarly. There are some of us who are KINESTHETIC in that we are more apt to react to touch and our senses. Visually oriented folks are more likely to lean toward visual arts. Each of has all of the aforementioned traits but we tend to excel and depend on one of them.

RULES? There is too much preoccupation with making, keeping or breaking rules in photography. It is a misconception that "artists" break rules- they may or may not. "Artistic" rules are teaching points, guidelines and basics. I have had many occasions to teach, instruct and train photographers. Even with the most talented and gifted students, I can't just tell them to "grab a camera and go with your gut". That would be like telling an illiterate person to go out and become a creative writer, a poet or a journalist. There have to be some points for discussion, critique, setting out the elements of composition, the basic principles of lighting, a practical concept of the physics, geometry, and mathematics of the craft and the mechanics of equipment operation. The naturally talented folks will observe or ignore the rules as they see fit. The somewhat less talented can still produce competent and satisfying work but perhaps more in a routine or observant manner. In the business of photography, where a high degree of competence and quality is expected, certain rules and methodologies can be depended upon ot ensure results- the photographer has to come back with the goods! The professional photographer must always have a dependable approach to fall back on if all else fails. Once all problems are solved, rules can be broken and another level of creativity or experimentation can be applied.

Some folks are too preoccupied with their own style or approach and reject the approaches, concepts, and style of others. I observed a modern or abstract artist critique a beautifully rendered realistic detailed painting as NOT being real art and said the maker was a d"draftsman, not an artist". This kind of thing is why I dislike labels. If every artist or craftsperson di exactly the same thing there would be no art or true craft.

My answer to the OP is simple. Just take the "versus" out of art and craft. Good craftsmanship is usually the foundation or art and if the craft can be performed in an artful manner- all the better.

Me? What do I consider myself as a professional photographer? Good question! I have earned some credentials, masterships, degree certifications etc. So...my wife told me to put them on my business card etc. Way down deep- I see myself as a master technician because I studied hard, practiced hard and know my stuff to the point where I can always satisfy my clients and produce what the want or need whe the need it. I try to do my work as artfully as I can with what comes to me naturally and some of which I learned for others. Not everything I do is unique- some of it is derivative in that I fell that my art/craft is an ongoing learning process. Some of what I do, I feel is my own and some of it emulates what I have seen or admired elsewhere. If my clients, friends, family, peers, and competitors think my work is art, I appreciate the compliments and, at least, feel that I am doing a good job. I won't put the word "artist" on my business card any time soon- I'll leave that opinion up to others. I am perfectly happy with the title "Professional Photographer".

schaut

I THINK i said that!