srt101fan

There have been several posts now on the correlation of the Ansel Adams zone scale and histogram values. Could someone please tell me how I would use that info to improve my photography?

AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire

Thanks. I recall from film days that it wasn't a strictly linear scale, but putting my densitometer up to a computer LED screen doesn't seem like an option. I'll be doing some experiments on my D7100 and Lightroom / PS.

Andy

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

srt101fan, I'm in the process of writing an addendum covering just that topic. In the mean time, I use The Zone System almost exclusively when shooting sheet film or digital. The application of TZS is exactly the opposite for digital. Instead of metering and placing the shadow values, meter and place the highlight values. Then process the digital image to control the shadows. That's the rough outline of how to approach digital. Again, I'm writing an addendum to the exposure series I posted. It should be posted within the next few days.
--Bob

JD750 Loc: SoCal

(1) you are obviously not a beginner.
(2) feel free to post your own exposure tutorial for beginners.

I am waiting with baited breath for it. Please PM me when you do, lest I miss it.

srt101fan

Thanks, Bob; I have followed your posts re use of the Zone system and have enjoyed your impressive work. It was the attempted correlation of zones with histogram values (and the practical application of that) that threw me. Looking forward to the addendum!

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

The zones descriptions are for the print, not the curve. The only thing that digital has in common with a film print is that:

- 0 represents absolute black, can't get any darker, more silver or more ink will not make it darker and you can't go lower in the JPEG than 0
- X represents paper white, you can't get any whiter, no ink or silver at all and you can't go any higher in the JPEG than 255
- middle gray is somewhere in the middle, probably within Zone V and maybe in the middle of it, around a JPEG value of 127 but that can be argued

The way that the remaining 254 JPEG levels are distributed over the remaining 9 zones is arbitrary. Assigning about 28 levels per zone would pointless and compressing the number of levels in any zone simply leaves more levels for other zones. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul - a futile exercise as we have already seen. There should be no gaps but the boundaries between adjacent zones cannot be precise. They might even overlap.

Most film has more contrast around the middle tones than at the ends so we end up with an "S" curve. But silver paper does also so when you use film to print in the darkroom you end up with one offsetting the other, a straighter line but it's not really straight.

We can use the Zone System with film and we can use what we learned from that with digital. But using a spot meter reading with digital is not "using the Zone System".

Bird Dawg Loc: Georgia

Thanks Bob, this is why I love UHH. So many smart creative photography experts that have helped me so much. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

This might help Zone System for Digital Exposures

Note that the digital "zones" span a narrower (finite) range than a spot meter can read. The scene's DR can be much greater than nine steps.

If you are capturing a scene in color the span is even narrower. Color is very difficult to see in Zones II and VIII. The same applies to color film.

(Download)

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

The chart does have gaps, but they are easily understood by most anyone. What you perceive as gaps are actually an emphasis on the three key points, black-middle gray-white. It should be clear that from Zone 0 to Zone I the values are 0-8. Zone IV to V 80-126. It's not difficult.
--Bob

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Bird Dawg, you are very welcome.
--Bob

Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.

Maybe my brain is still frozen from our -4 temps last night but this sentence confuses me. "Note that the digital "zones" span a narrower (finite) range than a spot meter can read".

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

No, Zone 0 is 0. Zone I is 1-8. Maybe you should study it more closely.

srt101fan

So you write "....using a spot meter reading with digital is not 'using the Zone System'."

And then you link to and recommend the article "Zone System for Digital Exposures" in which the author says "I recommend shooting in Manual mode and using Spot Metering when utilizing the Zone System to determine exposure."

Now you'll probably say that you meant to say that using a spot meter alone does not mean you're using the Zone system.... Or what did you mean to say? This thread is aimed beginners. Please be a little clearer in your commentary.

AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire

Of course. And the paper based system was also arbitrary. I recall Minor White speaking at a workshop in Boston where he said that if they had had the paper in use in the 1970s available decades ago, it might have been better to use more zones. The distance between zones is less arbitrary, but certainly based on the desire to work in normal "stops" much of the time.

In digital, as with film, the key concept is visualizing the finished appearance you wish to obtain, setting an exposure that will distribute the values in the scene across the shades you visualized, and then adjusting the presentation of them on paper or pixels by the means available. The major differences I see in working a zone model digitally are that that you expose more to preserve highlight values than shadows, and you have a lot more sophisticated "development" tools to adjust the placement of tones on your selected media. Unfortunately, the ink-based systems we generally use today can't cover the full ten zones as well as silver-based prints.

But this should probably be a topic for another thread - Bob has done a fine job of presenting this to photographic newcomers.

Andy

PS: Thanks for the link! It was very informative, and I got a couple of new ideas, especially in terms of color placement.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

No, it's using a spot meter to measure the luminance of selected portions of the scene. To call it "using the Zone System" is like saying that operating an motor boat is sailing.

To truly use the Zone System you have to also be shooting film, preferably sheet film, and varying the development of the image to increase or decrease the contrast of the film and, to a lesser extent, the effective ISO of the of the combination.

With digital you can't do all of that so you are not really "using the Zone System". You are just getting an exposure that you hope records the full range of values you want to display and then adjusting the result in post processing to get portions of the scene into the print zones where you want them.

But the bottom line is that the Zone System, ETTR, etc., are well beyond the scope of A Beginner's Guide. It is a disservice to beginners to discuss more advanced topics in a beginner's thread. The only reason I have responded is that Bob introduced the topic.

All we should be talking about here are things that get the beginner to understand how exposure works so they can learn how to start using full Manual.