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OK, another mirrorless and full frame question
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Jan 2, 2019 10:22:56   #
GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI
 
jaycoffman wrote:
It may just be a GAS attack but I am considering changing from my Nikon d7100 to a mirrorless in the near future. My two main reasons are that I hope to lighten and shrink my equipment even a small amount as it's getting harder to lug my d7100 and Tamron 18-400 lens around. I realize there will be some change in how I view my photography with a mirrorless and also that some lenses will be as big as what I have but between lugging the gear in the tank bag of my bike and jumping in and out of safari vehicles and walking through the brush I'm ready for a little relief. Second, I also find myself pushing the ISO in the d7100 for a lot of shots in very low light conditions and a lot of my pictures are very difficult to bring back from the snow factor when using high ISOs even with subscription Lightroom/Photoshop. My 50mm makes pushing possible but not enough for acceptable pictures.

Right now many reviewers are saying that the mirrorless Nikon Z6 is the best buy now but there are as many still sticking the the Sony a7III (both are at about the same price point). The Nikon attracts me because I'm used to Nikons. If I get the Z6 I'll also get the 24-70mm f4 lens for my general lens.

First Question: My two main lenses on my d7100 are the Tamron 18-400 and a Nikon 50mm 1.4 lens. Both are, I believe, for the crop sensor. So if I get the adapter for the Z6 will these work for me on the full frame Z6? I know they will increase the bulk when I need to use them but I will no longer need to use the 18-400 as a walk-around lens.

Second Question: Will I see low light improvement in the quality of my pictures with a mirrorless? (I understand that I am responsible for the content and getting the exposure factors right and I will always be working on that.) Low light performance is one of the things advertised about these full frame mirrorless cameras.

Last Question: Nikon vs. Sony--Will I have to do anything special with the FTZ cards, are they expensive and does anyone have experience with them?

If anyone has any other cameras in this range I'm open to suggestions. I'm not a pro and won't be but I do like trying to get good images that I can use in picture stories and other things but probably no huge prints.

Thanks for any thoughts. I will go to the local camera store tomorrow to see how each of these cameras feels to me and see what they say about my issues but I've been somewhat disappointed in their advice in the past which is why I'm posing this question.
It may just be a GAS attack but I am considering c... (show quote)


If you want to lighten the load, I would suggest sticking with a crop frame sensor in the mirrorless camera of choice. Here's why. My main camera is a D500 with a large number of lenses. This is too heavy/bulky to take on plane trips (IMO). I opted for the Sony a6000 and 18-105 lens with a 35/1.8 for low light. I loved this kit. Alas, I wanted a full-frame camera and went with the Sony a7Riii with a 24-70/4 lens. Although I LOVE this camera, it is quite a bit bulkier than the previous Sony kit and I feel like I don't have enough reach with the lens I chose. I have 2 other lenses for it, but may need to get either the 70-200 or the 100-400 for that reach I want. But, that adds to the weight and size of the kit.

I have no experience with Nikon's mirrorless camera; but if I were considering it, I would wait a year or two for a better model. Seriously consider the Sony crop sensor, maybe an upgrade to the a6000. I think the newest is a6500.

Good luck. You will like having a lighter kit!

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Jan 2, 2019 10:54:15   #
pappleg
 
I have the Z7 with 24-70 F4.0 and love it. The weight is definitely a factor and will continue with many of the new Z series lenses in part because there is no longer a need for VR lenses because stabilization is built into the body. My former D810 with 24-120 F4.0 weighed in at 5+ lbs and the Z7 and 24-70 clocks in at 2.7lbs (Z6 weighs the same). As for IQ and low light capability I 'll let you be the judge. See attached photo finished last week-the moon was layered in Photoshop. Shot the moon with and older Micro Nikkor 105 F2.8 that lacked VR and is manual focus that I picked up used for $225. The skyline was tripod mounted at 24mm, ISO 200 for 3 seconds at F8.0. I have done daylight shoots of this image at F4.0 showing same corner sharpness and resolution. Pat


(Download)

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Jan 2, 2019 10:54:30   #
ELNikkor
 
I'd get the FX Z6 and lens and 24-70, but hang onto the APS-C D7100 with the 18-400 for when you need the reach.

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Jan 2, 2019 11:16:13   #
jaycoffman Loc: San Diego
 
CO wrote:
I rented the Z6 with the 24-70 f/4 S lens for one week recently. I used my D500 side-by-side with the Z6 for comparison purposes. I can say that the Z6 autofocus is not as good as the autofocus in the D500. The Z6 would often hunt in even slightly dim light. My D500 would acquire focus right away. The Z6 does have a low-light autofocus mode. It improves things a little. It's still very good autofocus but for low light or action photos I would trust my D500 AF a little more. One thing that's good is that no AF fine tuning is needed. It nails the best focus every time since it's finding the highest contrast at the sensor.

I took photos with the Z6 at up to ISO10000. The photos still looked good but colors were becoming a little wonky and the resolution was dropping.

It's actually XQD cards not FTZ. I use them in my D500. They're more robust than SD cards and have higher transfer rates. They have the same type of contacts inside as SD cards which I think is good. I'm glad Nikon went with those instead of CF or CFast cards. The CF cards have pins that have been known to bend or break.

I agree with imagemeister above about the quality of the images with lenses that are designed for the Z cameras. I was very impressed with the 24-70 f/4 S lens. The image quality is stellar I always thought that Nikon's AF-S (ultrasonic silent wave motor) lenses were very smooth and quiet. The stepping motor in the 24-70 f/4 S lens seems to be even quieter. It's so quiet and smooth that the only way to know it's focusing is when you see the subject come into focus in the viewfinder.

I also want to purchase a Z6 but want to wait a little to see what the D750 replacement is going to be like.

I did comparison shots with the Z6 and my D500. I made diptychs with them for comparison purposes. I'll post them below. Some of the differences can be attributed to the different lenses also.
I rented the Z6 with the 24-70 f/4 S lens for one ... (show quote)


Thank you CO - this is very helpful information. Sorry about the mixup on the cards--that's my fault but I really appreciate the explanation. If it weren't for size I may well go to the D500 but it's even bigger than my D7100. If I get the Z6 I will also get the 24-70 f/4 S lens to go with it as I understand how a lens engineered to work with a specific camera would provide the best images. I really appreciate the time you took to give me the side by side/top by bottom pictures. It's clear both cameras take excellent pictures and it's interesting that on the side by side the D500 produced slightly richer color and on the top to bottom the Z6 produced slightly richer colors. But from what you're saying I think I will be seriously considering the Z6 even with some limitations. For sure the Z6 will produce better results than my D7100 in low light situations and I'll see later how the ergonomics feel when I go to the local camera store.

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Jan 2, 2019 11:17:30   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
pappleg wrote:
I have the Z7 with 24-70 F4.0 and love it. The weight is definitely a factor and will continue with many of the new Z series lenses in part because there is no longer a need for VR lenses because stabilization is built into the body. My former D810 with 24-120 F4.0 weighed in at 5+ lbs and the Z7 and 24-70 clocks in at 2.7lbs (Z6 weighs the same). As for IQ and low light capability I 'll let you be the judge. See attached photo finished last week-the moon was layered in Photoshop. Shot the moon with and older Micro Nikkor 105 F2.8 that lacked VR and is manual focus that I picked up used for $225. The skyline was tripod mounted at 24mm, ISO 200 for 3 seconds at F8.0. I have done daylight shoots of this image at F4.0 showing same corner sharpness and resolution. Pat
I have the Z7 with 24-70 F4.0 and love it. The we... (show quote)


Never say no longer, wait until Nikon catches up one day to Olympus and Panasonic with their dual IS systems. Beautiful photo btw.

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Jan 2, 2019 11:19:08   #
jaycoffman Loc: San Diego
 
GrandmaG wrote:
If you want to lighten the load, I would suggest sticking with a crop frame sensor in the mirrorless camera of choice. Here's why. My main camera is a D500 with a large number of lenses. This is too heavy/bulky to take on plane trips (IMO). I opted for the Sony a6000 and 18-105 lens with a 35/1.8 for low light. I loved this kit. Alas, I wanted a full-frame camera and went with the Sony a7Riii with a 24-70/4 lens. Although I LOVE this camera, it is quite a bit bulkier than the previous Sony kit and I feel like I don't have enough reach with the lens I chose. I have 2 other lenses for it, but may need to get either the 70-200 or the 100-400 for that reach I want. But, that adds to the weight and size of the kit.

I have no experience with Nikon's mirrorless camera; but if I were considering it, I would wait a year or two for a better model. Seriously consider the Sony crop sensor, maybe an upgrade to the a6000. I think the newest is a6500.

Good luck. You will like having a lighter kit!
If you want to lighten the load, I would suggest s... (show quote)


Thank you GrandmaG--I appreciate your thoughts very much. Today I hope to go to the local camera store and get a feel for the different cameras and a big consideration will be how much size and weight I can drop. I will consider a crop mirrorless as an alternative.

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Jan 2, 2019 11:23:46   #
jaycoffman Loc: San Diego
 
ELNikkor wrote:
I'd get the FX Z6 and lens and 24-70, but hang onto the APS-C D7100 with the 18-400 for when you need the reach.


ELNikkor--what a quaint suggestion and that's not being sarcastic. For some reason I did not think of that. In general when I need the reach it's for a specific trip usually safari with shooting animals all over the place. On a trip like that I could use the D7100 with the 18-400 and most of my shooting would be from vehicles. I could use the Z6 on my motorcycle and for most other trips I take. I will consider this.

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Jan 2, 2019 11:26:35   #
wilson5097 Loc: Sandy, UT
 
I have been a Nikon user for many years. I currently have a Nikon D500, which I use for bird photography, and absolutely love it! But, I am getting older, and the size of the mirroless cameras attracted me, as well as the simple, illogical fun factor of a new toy! First, I purchased an Olympus mirrorless camera, complete with several lenses. It's a great camera! I loved the smaller size! But, my old mind, which was used to the Nikon menus, didn't do well with the Olympus menus. It was totally the user, and not the camera! After going to the camera store with the same "dumb" questions, I sold it in frustration, and not wanting to wait for the Nikon Z6, I purchased the Sony a7IIIr. It's in between the Olympus and D500, in size. I love this camera! My old mind has adapted to the menu and I get fantastic low light photos! At times, I do the same thing with the D500, so the comparison could very well be the user and not the camera. Though I am dealing with a 42mp Sony, compared to a 24mp Nikon. So, perhaps that can make a difference.
My son-in-law has purchased the Z6 camera. He let me play with it, and I think it is very high quality! My only concern is the lack of lenses for the Z6, right now. Like you have said, an adapter can be used, but you do sacrifice some quality, in doing so. As an amature, in it for fun, this is not a big concern to me, but, it could be for you, if you want a more accurate photo.
Back to the Sony. I recently took action shots of Canada Geese, lifting off from a river. Those photos absolutely pop!
All these stories being said, I think you will be happy with the Sony a7IIIr, if you choose to go that route. The down side is that you will pay a bunch of bucks for all the lenses you need. The Nikon Z6 is also a fantastic camera, and if you don't mind the slightly softer photo quality, when using an adapter, you will have a great camera set up. You mentioned that you want less weight, though. You will still have quite a heavy outfit, when you put the old lenses on that camera. So, that may be something to consider.

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Jan 2, 2019 11:28:14   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
As you are considering the D500, please look at it with a battery grip. Rather than change formats or brands, I have installed battery grips (I strongly recommend only factory grips) and find that the drastically improved ergonomics provide benefits that are much better for me than trying to hold an even smaller camera and lens, even if they are lighter. This approach may not work for you, but it is at least worth a look. I'll have to admit that I don't know what, if any, grip options are available for your D7100, though.

If it works, the grip, even at $300 or $400 is about 10-20% the cost of a new camera, before buying any lenses.

EDIT: Looks like the MB-D15 grip is for the D7100. Still available at B&H, so your camera store might have them also. Here's a link:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/929858-REG/nikon_27096_mb_d15_multi_power_battery.html/?ap=y&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjpaAhsXP3wIVRJ7ACh3aFgfcEAYYASABEgLs1fD_BwE&lsft=BI%3A514&smp=Y

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Jan 2, 2019 11:30:47   #
jaycoffman Loc: San Diego
 
larryepage wrote:
As you are considering the D500, please look at it with a battery grip. Rather than change formats, I have installed battery grips (I strongly recommend only factory grips) and find that the drastically improved ergonomics provide benefits that are much better for me than trying to hold an even smaller camera and lens, even if they are lighter. And...this approach may not work for you, but it is at least worth a look.

And if it works, the grip, even at $300 or $400 is about 10-20% the cost of a new camera, before buying any lenses.
As you are considering the D500, please look at it... (show quote)


Thanks Larry - all suggestions are welcome. I've never actually handled the D500 so I'll try that later when I hit the camera store.

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Jan 2, 2019 11:36:48   #
jaycoffman Loc: San Diego
 
wilson5097 wrote:
I have been a Nikon user for many years. I currently have a Nikon D500, which I use for bird photography, and absolutely love it! But, I am getting older, and the size of the mirroless cameras attracted me, as well as the simple, illogical fun factor of a new toy! First, I purchased an Olympus mirrorless camera, complete with several lenses. It's a great camera! I loved the smaller size! But, my old mind, which was used to the Nikon menus, didn't do well with the Olympus menus. It was totally the user, and not the camera! After going to the camera store with the same "dumb" questions, I sold it in frustration, and not wanting to wait for the Nikon Z6, I purchased the Sony a7IIIr. It's in between the Olympus and D500, in size. I love this camera! My old mind has adapted to the menu and I get fantastic low light photos! At times, I do the same thing with the D500, so the comparison could very well be the user and not the camera. Though I am dealing with a 42mp Sony, compared to a 24mp Nikon. So, perhaps that can make a difference.
My son-in-law has purchased the Z6 camera. He let me play with it, and I think it is very high quality! My only concern is the lack of lenses for the Z6, right now. Like you have said, an adapter can be used, but you do sacrifice some quality, in doing so. As an amature, in it for fun, this is not a big concern to me, but, it could be for you, if you want a more accurate photo.
Back to the Sony. I recently took action shots of Canada Geese, lifting off from a river. Those photos absolutely pop!
All these stories being said, I think you will be happy with the Sony a7IIIr, if you choose to go that route. The down side is that you will pay a bunch of bucks for all the lenses you need. The Nikon Z6 is also a fantastic camera, and if you don't mind the slightly softer photo quality, when using an adapter, you will have a great camera set up. You mentioned that you want less weight, though. You will still have quite a heavy outfit, when you put the old lenses on that camera. So, that may be something to consider.
I have been a Nikon user for many years. I curren... (show quote)


Thanks wilson. I appreciate your answer because you fit much of my profile. Even though I strive for the best quality pictures I can get under the circumstances I have always made some sacrifices because of my need to a versatile walk-around lens--hence my almost constant use of the Tamron 18-400. I will still make what sacrifices I need to be able to use the camera as my needs require. After all the great replies to my questions I will also be looking at the Sony that is comparable to the Nikon Z6 although like you I'm used to the Nikon ergonomics and menus so we'll see.

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Jan 2, 2019 11:54:38   #
xt2 Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
Don't let bias or the odd troll put you off. I have both Fuji mirrorless cameras and Nikon FF. The Fuji is significantly lighter and smaller in hand. Only one of my big primes is a similar size to the Nikon gear. For my work, the mirrorless Fuji is terrific. I do not blow up photos to billboard size so I don't really care about the 26 mp vs 36 mp difference. The one stop (if that) of light is easily made up with the superb Fuji glass and sensor tech. I care about the IQ and my desire to actually take a camera out with me. My Fuji gear is with me "all" the time where my FF gear sits in a closet. Part of the total experience is not simply weight, size, but the joy and ease of use. Maybe try renting a Nikon, Fuji and Oly to see what works for you? Good luck finding the camera of your choice.

Happy New Year!


wmurnahan wrote:
You are having an attack. A FF mirrorless body will be lighter without the mirror and pentaprizm but the lenses will be the same size and weight. The only way to save wt is to move to the Panasonic/Olympus crop sensor where they are making the lenses fit the sensor. In the Sony which has been making both crop sensor and a FF, you can buy crop frame lenses that are smaller but for the most part the lenses are the same size. So is the weight savings of the body enough to switch systems? Low light should be about the same among a DSLR and a mirrorless, Sony does seem to be the leader in low light with their FF.
You are having an attack. A FF mirrorless body wil... (show quote)

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Jan 2, 2019 12:02:05   #
Rayban
 
I also have the Z6 with the 24-70 and am delighted with it, the high ISO performance particularly exceeded expectations.

I among considering pairing it with a Tamron 70-200 f2.8 D VC USD G2 has anybody got any experience with this lens?

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Jan 2, 2019 12:10:45   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Jay--

Don't know if you had a chance to see above or not...I edited my post to indicate that the MB-D15 battery grip is still available for your D7100. If it works for you, B&H has it for $239 new.

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Jan 2, 2019 12:13:08   #
jcboy3
 
jaycoffman wrote:
It may just be a GAS attack but I am considering changing from my Nikon d7100 to a mirrorless in the near future. My two main reasons are that I hope to lighten and shrink my equipment even a small amount as it's getting harder to lug my d7100 and Tamron 18-400 lens around. I realize there will be some change in how I view my photography with a mirrorless and also that some lenses will be as big as what I have but between lugging the gear in the tank bag of my bike and jumping in and out of safari vehicles and walking through the brush I'm ready for a little relief. Second, I also find myself pushing the ISO in the d7100 for a lot of shots in very low light conditions and a lot of my pictures are very difficult to bring back from the snow factor when using high ISOs even with subscription Lightroom/Photoshop. My 50mm makes pushing possible but not enough for acceptable pictures.

Right now many reviewers are saying that the mirrorless Nikon Z6 is the best buy now but there are as many still sticking the the Sony a7III (both are at about the same price point). The Nikon attracts me because I'm used to Nikons. If I get the Z6 I'll also get the 24-70mm f4 lens for my general lens.

First Question: My two main lenses on my d7100 are the Tamron 18-400 and a Nikon 50mm 1.4 lens. Both are, I believe, for the crop sensor. So if I get the adapter for the Z6 will these work for me on the full frame Z6? I know they will increase the bulk when I need to use them but I will no longer need to use the 18-400 as a walk-around lens.

Second Question: Will I see low light improvement in the quality of my pictures with a mirrorless? (I understand that I am responsible for the content and getting the exposure factors right and I will always be working on that.) Low light performance is one of the things advertised about these full frame mirrorless cameras.

Last Question: Nikon vs. Sony--Will I have to do anything special with the FTZ cards, are they expensive and does anyone have experience with them?

If anyone has any other cameras in this range I'm open to suggestions. I'm not a pro and won't be but I do like trying to get good images that I can use in picture stories and other things but probably no huge prints.

Thanks for any thoughts. I will go to the local camera store tomorrow to see how each of these cameras feels to me and see what they say about my issues but I've been somewhat disappointed in their advice in the past which is why I'm posing this question.
It may just be a GAS attack but I am considering c... (show quote)


Going full frame will not reduce size and weight of your system, unless you severely restrict the focal length range you have. But, you don't mention what focal length range you want to move to. Going full frame will improve your low light shooting, but you will sacrifice depth of field for it.

You can improve low light performance three ways: (1) get a bigger sensor, (2) get faster lenses, (3) get better image stabilization. Bigger sensor reduces depth of field. Bigger sensor and faster lenses increase size and weight and cost. Better image stabilization sacrifices shutter speed, which won't work with moving subjects. So you choice depends on how much you want to sacrifice focal length, how much you want to spend, how much you really want to reduce size and weight, and what subjects you shoot.

If you really want to get small and light, then you should be looking at Fuji, Olympus, or Panasonic. If you want low light performance, then fast primes and a low light camera like the Panasonic GH5s should be considered.

Or you can upgrade your camera to a D7500, and get some faster lenses like the 16-80 f/2.8-4.

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