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A question for pixel peepers
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Oct 20, 2018 08:13:11   #
abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois
 
dsmeltz wrote:
I love statistical analysis! And modeling. Especially DEA. But the one thing we know about stats and modeling is the the fit is never perfect, it is an approximation of how things work that will, likely, be proven wrong in some major way at some point. However, until it is proved wrong and while it is useful at predicting things, we will continue to use it. After we find the error, we adjust the model.


As long as we are getting off topic... Statistics and modeling prove nothing. They are alternatives to understanding what is happening in real terms. People rather play with numbers than conducting the experiments which require more work and frustration until you understand clearly what is going on. Next point. Modeling is helpful to rule out alternative explanations or predicting future behavior. In either event, experimentation is the ultimate tool and should not be overlooked.

Can we get back to the OP now?

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Oct 20, 2018 08:14:20   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
gvarner wrote:
If you shoot full frame with 30 MP and crop to 2/3 of that in post, do you get an equivalent 20 MP edited photo?


Yes, you are more or less correct. You may be able to restore pixel count with software like Genuine Fractals, now known as Perfect Resize by On1, that will convert the raster image file to a vector file, increase the size, then convert it back to raster, but the end result can be fairly subtle, and any detail or fine texture not originally recorded will not magically appear when you increase the resolution of the image using resizing software. What you will get is some smoothing (reducing the apparent "appearance" of pixels), interpolation, anti-aliasing and slight improvements in edge contrast, so you will see less pixelation, and the image will "appear" to look better. The usual limit on increasing image size is about 200%, but for some images you can go to 300%.

This is a review of Perfect Resize - one of the better resizing software packages - judge for yourself.

https://blog.kenkaminesky.com/onone-perfect-resize-software-review/

I use it occasionally - when I am lazy and I want to do a gallery wrap.

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Oct 20, 2018 08:31:22   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
BboH wrote:
I have never been able to get my head around the issue in the stream of thought that the loss of pixels upon cropping denigrates the resolution, quality of those pixels remaining in the image notwithstanding Burk's good explanation and PHRubn's following comment.
To make an analogy:
I have a jar of sliced peaches which I purchased because I like its taste (resolution) - the label advertises (x) number of slices (pixels). I dish out a serving and the reduction of the number of slices (pixels) does nothing to the taste (quality) of those slices (pixels) remaining; the taste (quality) is unchanged from what it was before the jar was opened. Another - I have a piece of 8x11 1/2 paper which I trim down to 6x8 - the quality of the 6x8 is unchanged from what it was before it was trimmed out.
?????
I have never been able to get my head around the i... (show quote)


I think the OP is asking what happens when his "cropped by a third" picture is printed to the same size as his un-cropped picture, or at what size of print the difference would become noticeable.

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Oct 20, 2018 09:25:52   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
gvarner wrote:
If you shoot full frame with 30 MP and crop to 2/3 of that in post, do you get an equivalent 20 MP edited photo?


NO. The math is not that simple, for example an 8X10 image is not twice the area of a 4X5 image, it is 4X the size. Same math applies with sensors.

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Oct 20, 2018 09:32:14   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
burkphoto wrote:
You may not have intended it as such, but this is REALLY a trick question!

The honest answer is that you get a 20MP image cropped from a 30MP original file. You're not getting the full resolution of the lens and sensor combination.

Of course, at a certain point, you must re-size the image through software interpolation to enlarge it, but at some point, you dip below the required 240 pixels per inch of ORIGINAL, in-camera generated pixels required to spread over each linear inch of output, in order to meet extinction resolution at 12.8 inches from an 8x10 print.

Extinction resolution is the point at which your eyes cannot resolve any more detail from an image, even if you increase the available pixel count. Most labs will tell you that 240 to 250 PPI — un-interpolated, from the original file — is what is needed to preserve all the detail you can see at 8x10. As the print size and appropriate viewing distance increase, that number is reduced. Conversely, at smaller print sizes, it is INCREASED. (Yes, that's counter-intuitive, I know, but true.)

All that said, a 20MP crop from a 30MP original will make a very large print from most subject matter. 30x40 inches is not outside the realm of acceptability, unless your subject matter DEMANDS up-close pixel peeping (such as a large group of people, or a highly detailed landscape, or a military spy photo). I've made a few un-cropped 40x30 prints from 16MP Micro 4/3 images, and they look just fine when you view an entire print from 50".

In general, people put far too much emphasis on MP count. Thousands of the best, most dramatic and iconic images of the 20th century were made with far less effective resolution than can be had from a 30MP camera.

I once worked for a designer whose motto was, "If you can't make it GOOD, make it BIG." I believe the original source of that was a Time-Life magazine editor. They were known for occasional "double-truck bleed" center-fold photos of important events. Many of those were from 35mm Tri-X negatives, carefully push-processed in soft-working developers like Acufine. Our tools are much better today! Go forth and make images while there is still light to do so!
You may not have intended it as such, but this is ... (show quote)




Thanks, years ago I did a lot of digital printing and we considered 200 DPI, or PPI your choice to be acceptable for printing sharp images, people bringing in files at 600 PPI were just making humungous files that were difficult to work with and offered no benefit. You have to remember back in the day we did not have the computer power that we have today.

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Oct 20, 2018 09:53:18   #
BboH Loc: s of 2/21, Ellicott City, MD
 
Delderby wrote:
I think the OP is asking what happens when his "cropped by a third" picture is printed to the same size as his un-cropped picture, or at what size of print the difference would become noticeable.


I can get my head around that. Thank you

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Oct 20, 2018 10:46:08   #
tgreenhaw
 
The pixel math is important, but there is another big factor - resolving power. There are a lot of other factors that affect resolution besides pixel count. I have a 50MP Canon 5Ds and I love it, but if I compare the same scene shot with one cropped and the other at lower resolution shot twice as close the cropped image is not as sharp. A digital zoom only gets you so far.

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Oct 20, 2018 10:47:59   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
BboH wrote:
I have never been able to get my head around the issue in the stream of thought that the loss of pixels upon cropping denigrates the resolution, quality of those pixels remaining in the image notwithstanding Burk's good explanation and PHRubn's following comment.
To make an analogy:
I have a jar of sliced peaches which I purchased because I like its taste (resolution) - the label advertises (x) number of slices (pixels). I dish out a serving and the reduction of the number of slices (pixels) does nothing to the taste (quality) of those slices (pixels) remaining; the taste (quality) is unchanged from what it was before the jar was opened. Another - I have a piece of 8x11 1/2 paper which I trim down to 6x8 - the quality of the 6x8 is unchanged from what it was before it was trimmed out.
?????
I have never been able to get my head around the i... (show quote)


The problem is that you can’t interpolate peaches or paper...

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Oct 20, 2018 10:49:14   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
gvarner wrote:
If you shoot full frame with 30 MP and crop to 2/3 of that in post, do you get an equivalent 20 MP edited photo?


What does the OP mean by "equivalent"?

This is all way too confusing. Does this simplify the answer to the original question:

If you just crop the original image, leaving 20 megapixels out of the 30, it is not "equivalent" to anything. It is just a portion of the original image. There's no difference in the pixels. They are the SAME.

If you ENLARGE the cropped portion to the same size as the original, the pixels will be LARGER. This isn't "equivalent" either.

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Oct 20, 2018 11:02:49   #
bpulv Loc: Buena Park, CA
 
abc1234 wrote:
As long as we are getting off topic... Statistics and modeling prove nothing. They are alternatives to understanding what is happening in real terms. People rather play with numbers than conducting the experiments which require more work and frustration until you understand clearly what is going on. Next point. Modeling is helpful to rule out alternative explanations or predicting future behavior. In either event, experimentation is the ultimate tool and should not be overlooked.

Can we get back to the OP now?
As long as we are getting off topic... Statistics... (show quote)


I am neither a mathematician nor a scientist, but am I correct that statistics and modeling are often used as the basis for experimentation; in some cases to test the validity of the statistics and modeling themselves?

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Oct 20, 2018 11:41:20   #
TheShoe Loc: Lacey, WA
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
... Much like the Cloud is what used to be called data centers in my view. Others mileage may vary.
To the contrary, the Cloud is the server half of the oft-disparaged Client-Server model. It is only a part of a data center. There is usually much more going on in the center than just what is needed to support the Cloud.

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Oct 20, 2018 11:48:24   #
Fredrick Loc: Former NYC, now San Francisco Bay Area
 
It only denegrates the resolution if the resulting image file is resized back up to its original size. Think of it as stretching the remaining pixels.

If the cropped image is left to its cropped size, then there is no loss in resolution.

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Oct 20, 2018 12:23:08   #
OllieFCR
 
Pixel enlargement does not/cannot restore the original resolution though.

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Oct 20, 2018 12:36:49   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
gvarner wrote:
If you shoot full frame with 30 MP and crop to 2/3 of that in post, do you get an equivalent 20 MP edited photo?


First you must define a 2/3 crop. Is it 2/3 x Horziontal and 2/3 x Vertical? Or is it 2/3 x the diagonal (the hypothenuse)? Both yield a 2/3 aspect ratio crop.

If it’s 2/3 of each side the remaining area is .4444... x 30 Meg = 13,333,333 pixels (13.3 MegPix)

If the crop is 2/3 of the diagonal, then the remaining area is .6666... x 30 Meg pixels = 20,000,000 pixels (20 MegPix)

Note that to obtain a 2/3 diagonal crop then you must crop each side by Sqrt(2/3) = .8164965809..... ~ .82

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Oct 20, 2018 12:39:56   #
OllieFCR
 
I believe that what you are getting at is: what crop on a full frame would give an equivalent amount of pixels on an APS-C type sensor. The APS-C gives a 1.6 magification (linear). Therefore, since the number of pixels is proportional to the square of the linear measurement, to get the same number of pixels as a 20 mp APS-C sensor from cropping the FF to the same content you would need about a 50 mp FF camera sensor. Of course, since the individual pixels in both sensors would be the same size you would lose some of the advantages of the FF, assuming the individual pixels are identical in both cameras (prob. not true), such as better ISO performance from larger pixels. Theoretically the smaller area of the 50 mp FF sensor could act just like a 20 mp APS-C sensor. Without an EV display for focusing it might be a little more tricky with the FF since all objects will appear smaller in the viewfinder.

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