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Sep 15, 2018 05:48:32   #
miked46 Loc: Winter Springs, Florida
 
I am strictly Canon - 60D, 70D and assorted lenses. Soon will add 6D MK2

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Sep 15, 2018 06:39:23   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
Shutterbug57 wrote:
There have been several posts asking about the “demise” of the DSLR. Last night was our monthly model night at the club. I took the opportunity to see what camera everybody brought. Our club is made up of pros, enthusiasts and the occasional noob. Last night we had 10 shooters - the Bengals were playing, so a light turnout. Cameras used were:

Mirrorless - 1 (2 if you count the iPhone a noob brought, but he used a D70s offered by a member)
DSLR - 9

DSLR - 9 (6 Nikon, 2 Canon & 1 Pentax)
micro 4:3 - 1 (Olympus IIRC)
FF/APSC MLIC - 0

At least 1 of the DSLR shooters also has a Fuji X-T2 (APSC mirrorless). Several also have film SLR bodies that occasionally show up on studio night. A couple have, and use film medium format cameras too.

There has been some interest in the mirrorless options and a few of the members have purchased a MILC. Only 1 member that I am aware of has made the switch to fully MILC. I am sure MILCs will continue to make inroads, but I doubt most of the members will dump DSLR for MILC in the near future.
There have been several posts asking about the “de... (show quote)


Trust me, every camera fills a need. And only so many camera's of any type will be sold (it's like cars). Everyone knows who makes the best car on the road but that's not the car most of us buy, why? brand loyalty and past practice. If you own a car, you like it, and it serves you well, you will probably buy that same make again. Same with any product including camera's.
The mirrorless camera fills a niche. No one camera does all. I own DSLR's, pocket camera's, and yes, one mirrorless camera, each has their own function, and they do it well. But not one of them is an all purpose, does everything camera.

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Sep 15, 2018 08:03:10   #
dcampbell52 Loc: Clearwater Fl
 
burkphoto wrote:
If you relied on Tri-X or HP5 at an Exposure Index of 1600 to 2400, 8x10 was all you dared. Sure, you could make a 16x20, but it wouldn’t pass close inspection. m43 does.


True, but during that period, you couldn't adjust you ISO (ASA) on the camera.. you shot Tri-X as ASA 400 but you could push it (unfortunately you had to push the entire roll and it was a processing decision). However, you did have the option to purchase and shoot with other grades of film with lower ISO/ASA numbers. Plus-X etc. I generally carried several rolls of film with varying grades and both negatives and slide film.. I also had a frigerator in the darkroom to store film in the freezer and also in the refrigerator part. I carried extra film in a cooler etc. Digital is so much easier... I can change ISO on the fly.. etc. Oh and I no longer have to drag an ice chest full of film. And yes, Tri-x was (generally) only good up to 8x10.. but was a favorite for news photographers because of it's speed (and rarely was a photo printed in a newspaper that was 8x10.
Now, I don't have to stock all of the different flavors of film... don't have a need for a darkroom (I have "Lightroom" and Photoshop on my computer, the wife's computer and 2 laptops) so my "darkroom" can travel with me. I no longer have to wait till I get home to make sure that my photos came out. I can look that afternoon or evening and see what (if any) I need to reshoot... Oh and I can look on the "live view" screen on the back of the camera also.

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Sep 15, 2018 08:28:53   #
leftj Loc: Texas
 
burkphoto wrote:
I'm with you on that! Many camera and electronics manufacturers really do need to use better nomenclature for their models.

Troglodyte? Great word! It was the original name of a mid-1960's rock band. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troggs ("Wild Thing" was one of their few hits.)


Loved that song.

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Sep 15, 2018 08:39:22   #
sr71 Loc: In Col. Juan Seguin Land
 
burkphoto wrote:
There are many reasons for this.

Demographics is one... If most of your club members are over 40, chances are, they are heavily invested in Nikon or Canon or other SLR/dSLR lenses. Most would not consider a change yet, because of their considerable inventory of expensive glass.

"Bragging rights" is another. "Mine's bigger than yours" keeps lots of guys in the heavy camera/long lens crowd.

I'm 63, and one of the rare people in my age group who gave up dSLRs for mirrorless. After studying mirrorless gear for a couple of years, I got rid of all my Nikon and Canon stuff in favor of Panasonic's Lumix Micro 4/3 system. It was a radical change, but it was absolutely the best thing I ever did with cameras. Here's why:

I RECORD EQUAL AMOUNTS OF STILLS AND VIDEO. The Lumix GH4 lets me get great results with one system.

GH4 still photos are perfectly fine for the training materials I create, and for the occasional event work I do. I have made a few 40" by 30" prints from full, uncropped images. They look great at 50", the recommended minimum viewing distance for a 40x30 (i.e.; the print diagonal dimension). 20x16/16x20 prints are great at any viewing distance! And, of course, smaller prints and images in a letter size document or on the web or any screen look fine.

GH4 Full HD 1080P and 4K video is good enough for documentaries, training, independent short films, TV commercials, Friday night football... AND, as a bonus, the audio quality is fantastic. No, I don't use the internal microphones. That would be ignorant of the inverse/square law with any video or stills camera that also records video. The GH4 has stereo mic in and headphone out jacks, plus peak level meters, level control, switchable peak limiters, and 76db signal-to-noise ratio pre-amps. That's adequate for many tasks and accommodates two mics with the proper external equipment. For anything REALLY important, I'll add an external audio recorder and feed the camera with "pass through" audio from it.

Low light work is fine down to ISO 2500 to 3200. In an emergency, 6400 is usable, especially for video. That's roughly two stops slower than a full frame dSLR, but for my needs, that's okay! If I'm working on anything important (film project, training, documentary...) I'm going to light it gently, anyway. I worked for 35 years with 400 speed films with much worse results for stills, and NO results for video. Besides, all my lenses are image stabilized, and give me about three f/stops of extra hand-holdability.

If I need shallow depth of field, I'll rent a fast lens such as the Leica 42.5mm f/1.2 Nocticron, or one of the Voigtlander Noktons (f/0.95). But my style is to use long lenses for shallow DOF anyway, so that's seldom an issue.

What really sealed the deal for me was that I can do everything I need to do with one system. I don't have to "switch mental gears" to go back and forth from a classic camcorder form factor to a dSLR form factor. I don't have to carry or check two cases. I don't have to have one set of lenses for stills and one for video. I can work COMPLETELY silently in a dark theatre, recording either stills or video, without disturbing anyone with shutter noise, or mirror slap, or light from an LCD screen. I can fit a very capable kit — camera or two, three lenses, flash, wireless mic system, shotgun mic, batteries, charger, cables, etc. — under an airline seat.

I learned a long time ago not to "Major on the minor." For example, I don't own a truck or a van... I need one only a couple of times a year. So I don't pay for a $40,000 vehicle that's hard to park, expensive to insure, requires massive tires, costs tons of money for gas, or causes me to worry about my stuff getting wet or my passengers being cramped. So if I need a full frame dSLR or mirrorless setup, I can rent it for a day or a week or a month from borrowlenses.com or lensrentals.com.

In short, I don't care what the crowd owns or uses. It simply does not matter to me, for my needs. I'm going to use the right tools for my jobs, and so should you. If that's a film camera, or a full frame dSLR, or a high end camcorder, or an antique porcelain foot (!), so be it. Do your homework and get what you need.

In the end, what matters is what you did with it!
There are many reasons for this. br br Demograph... (show quote)


Yep ditto ditto!! buy what you need and then learn to use it....... great post burk..... hope your doing well with the little blow that is goin on.....

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Sep 15, 2018 08:58:13   #
RKL349 Loc: Connecticut
 
rjaywallace wrote:
To restate the OP’s post for the sake of clarity:
Full Frame - 0
Smartphone - 1
Mirrorless APS-C - 1 (Fuji)
Micro 4/3 - 1? (the Olympus OM2 is a 35mm SLR film camera or were you referring to the Oly IIRC binoculars?)
DSLR - 9
..Nikon - 6
..Canon - 2
..Ricoh/Pentax - 1


Really? This must make the assumption that we cannot sufficiently read the OP’s post!

Reply
Sep 15, 2018 09:36:51   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
That's what film shooters said and the mimicked the rangefinder shooters who mimicked the brownie shooters.....


Shutterbug57 wrote:
There have been several posts asking about the “demise” of the DSLR. Last night was our monthly model night at the club. I took the opportunity to see what camera everybody brought. Our club is made up of pros, enthusiasts and the occasional noob. Last night we had 10 shooters - the Bengals were playing, so a light turnout. Cameras used were:

Mirrorless - 1 (2 if you count the iPhone a noob brought, but he used a D70s offered by a member)
DSLR - 9

DSLR - 9 (6 Nikon, 2 Canon & 1 Pentax)
micro 4:3 - 1 (Olympus IIRC)
FF/APSC MLIC - 0

At least 1 of the DSLR shooters also has a Fuji X-T2 (APSC mirrorless). Several also have film SLR bodies that occasionally show up on studio night. A couple have, and use film medium format cameras too.

There has been some interest in the mirrorless options and a few of the members have purchased a MILC. Only 1 member that I am aware of has made the switch to fully MILC. I am sure MILCs will continue to make inroads, but I doubt most of the members will dump DSLR for MILC in the near future.
There have been several posts asking about the “de... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Sep 15, 2018 09:57:12   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
You could be wrong. It is my guessing that many photographers in the near future will be using mirrorless cameras. I have always sustained that the dSLR camera is not going to go away completely, professionals rely on those cameras for a majority of their work.
Mirrorless will have to prove that can take the punishment and that their AF is on par with that on a dSLR camera before photojournalists accept them.

Reply
Sep 15, 2018 11:14:17   #
xt2 Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
burkphoto wrote:
There are many reasons for this.

Demographics is one... If most of your club members are over 40, chances are, they are heavily invested in Nikon or Canon or other SLR/dSLR lenses. Most would not consider a change yet, because of their considerable inventory of expensive glass.

"Bragging rights" is another. "Mine's bigger than yours" keeps lots of guys in the heavy camera/long lens crowd.

I'm 63, and one of the rare people in my age group who gave up dSLRs for mirrorless. After studying mirrorless gear for a couple of years, I got rid of all my Nikon and Canon stuff in favor of Panasonic's Lumix Micro 4/3 system. It was a radical change, but it was absolutely the best thing I ever did with cameras. Here's why:

I RECORD EQUAL AMOUNTS OF STILLS AND VIDEO. The Lumix GH4 lets me get great results with one system.

GH4 still photos are perfectly fine for the training materials I create, and for the occasional event work I do. I have made a few 40" by 30" prints from full, uncropped images. They look great at 50", the recommended minimum viewing distance for a 40x30 (i.e.; the print diagonal dimension). 20x16/16x20 prints are great at any viewing distance! And, of course, smaller prints and images in a letter size document or on the web or any screen look fine.

GH4 Full HD 1080P and 4K video is good enough for documentaries, training, independent short films, TV commercials, Friday night football... AND, as a bonus, the audio quality is fantastic. No, I don't use the internal microphones. That would be ignorant of the inverse/square law with any video or stills camera that also records video. The GH4 has stereo mic in and headphone out jacks, plus peak level meters, level control, switchable peak limiters, and 76db signal-to-noise ratio pre-amps. That's adequate for many tasks and accommodates two mics with the proper external equipment. For anything REALLY important, I'll add an external audio recorder and feed the camera with "pass through" audio from it.

Low light work is fine down to ISO 2500 to 3200. In an emergency, 6400 is usable, especially for video. That's roughly two stops slower than a full frame dSLR, but for my needs, that's okay! If I'm working on anything important (film project, training, documentary...) I'm going to light it gently, anyway. I worked for 35 years with 400 speed films with much worse results for stills, and NO results for video. Besides, all my lenses are image stabilized, and give me about three f/stops of extra hand-holdability.

If I need shallow depth of field, I'll rent a fast lens such as the Leica 42.5mm f/1.2 Nocticron, or one of the Voigtlander Noktons (f/0.95). But my style is to use long lenses for shallow DOF anyway, so that's seldom an issue.

What really sealed the deal for me was that I can do everything I need to do with one system. I don't have to "switch mental gears" to go back and forth from a classic camcorder form factor to a dSLR form factor. I don't have to carry or check two cases. I don't have to have one set of lenses for stills and one for video. I can work COMPLETELY silently in a dark theatre, recording either stills or video, without disturbing anyone with shutter noise, or mirror slap, or light from an LCD screen. I can fit a very capable kit — camera or two, three lenses, flash, wireless mic system, shotgun mic, batteries, charger, cables, etc. — under an airline seat.

I learned a long time ago not to "Major on the minor." For example, I don't own a truck or a van... I need one only a couple of times a year. So I don't pay for a $40,000 vehicle that's hard to park, expensive to insure, requires massive tires, costs tons of money for gas, or causes me to worry about my stuff getting wet or my passengers being cramped. So if I need a full frame dSLR or mirrorless setup, I can rent it for a day or a week or a month from borrowlenses.com or lensrentals.com.

In short, I don't care what the crowd owns or uses. It simply does not matter to me, for my needs. I'm going to use the right tools for my jobs, and so should you. If that's a film camera, or a full frame dSLR, or a high end camcorder, or an antique porcelain foot (!), so be it. Do your homework and get what you need.

In the end, what matters is what you did with it!
There are many reasons for this. br br Demograph... (show quote)



Reply
Sep 15, 2018 13:43:51   #
DennisC. Loc: Antelope, CA
 
dcampbell52 wrote:
True, but during that period, you couldn't adjust you ISO (ASA) on the camera.. you shot Tri-X as ASA 400 but you could push it (unfortunately you had to push the entire roll and it was a processing decision). However, you did have the option to purchase and shoot with other grades of film with lower ISO/ASA numbers. Plus-X etc. I generally carried several rolls of film with varying grades and both negatives and slide film.. I also had a frigerator in the darkroom to store film in the freezer and also in the refrigerator part. I carried extra film in a cooler etc. Digital is so much easier... I can change ISO on the fly.. etc. Oh and I no longer have to drag an ice chest full of film. And yes, Tri-x was (generally) only good up to 8x10.. but was a favorite for news photographers because of it's speed (and rarely was a photo printed in a newspaper that was 8x10.
Now, I don't have to stock all of the different flavors of film... don't have a need for a darkroom (I have "Lightroom" and Photoshop on my computer, the wife's computer and 2 laptops) so my "darkroom" can travel with me. I no longer have to wait till I get home to make sure that my photos came out. I can look that afternoon or evening and see what (if any) I need to reshoot... Oh and I can look on the "live view" screen on the back of the camera also.
True, but during that period, you couldn't adjust ... (show quote)


I have been all digital since 2001 when the Nikon D1X came out plus a Photoshop and After Effects user since the early 90s and I love it, but don’t you miss getting yours hands wet and working in the dark?

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Sep 15, 2018 14:34:15   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
sr71 wrote:
Yep ditto ditto!! buy what you need and then learn to use it....... great post burk..... hope your doing well with the little blow that is goin on.....


So far, we still have power. 780,000 don’t.

Reply
 
 
Sep 15, 2018 14:38:59   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
DennisC. wrote:
I have been all digital since 2001 when the Nikon D1X came out plus a Photoshop and After Effects user since the early 90s and I love it, but don’t you miss getting yours hands wet and working in the dark?


No... I don’t miss Dektol, E6, C41, or RA4... I burned out on that years ago. I did my own from 1965 to 1995. I worked in a pro portrait lab in many roles from 1979 to 2012, although I never had to process anything we sold.

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Sep 15, 2018 14:42:21   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
camerapapi wrote:
You could be wrong. It is my guessing that many photographers in the near future will be using mirrorless cameras. I have always sustained that the dSLR camera is not going to go away completely, professionals rely on those cameras for a majority of their work.
Mirrorless will have to prove that can take the punishment and that their AF is on par with that on a dSLR camera before photojournalists accept them.


The gear is just as rugged. The AF is more accurate *when it works fast enough,* and it’s getting faster with each camera generation.

Reply
Sep 15, 2018 17:15:20   #
Merlin1300 Loc: New England, But Now & Forever SoTX
 
burkphoto wrote:
In the end, what matters is what you did with it!
I have a stable full of Canon stuff. 7D Mk1, 80D, lenses out the kazoo.
Why did you pick the Lumix GH4 (I do like the Panasonic line), and what did it cost you to sell the old and buy the new ?
WHY did you do it ?? What were the size / weight benefits ?
Is there a camera RAW conversion to DNG available for the Panasonic files ? If the GH4 doesn't have a RAW option, that would be a deal Killer.
NOT meaning to hijack the post - - if needed, please start a new topic (and include a link to it).

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Sep 15, 2018 17:25:56   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Merlin1300 wrote:
I have a stable full of Canon stuff. 7D Mk1, 80D, lenses out the kazoo.
Why did you pick the Lumix GH4 (I do like the Panasonic line), and what did it cost you to sell the old and buy the new ?


I detailed my reasons in an early post in this thread.

The new system (new body, new 12-35mm f/2.8, used 30mm f/2.8 Macro, and used 35-100mm f/2.8) cost about $3300.

I got about $800 for what I traded in (two bodies and three lenses). I still have my film gear and my old Canon GL2 video camera... It was all too old or specialized.

The cost wasn't a huge factor for me. The biggest hurdle was mental, doing enough study to understand why the shift would be beneficial.

If I were doing it today, I'd get the current versions of the same lenses, plus the GH5. Still photographers should look at the G9. "Budget" indy filmmakers should look at the GH5s and some of the full frame Sony gear. The GH5 and the GH4 are hybrid models, with about equal emphasis on stills and video.

Part of the process was testing my old Nikon film lenses on the GH4. I didn't like the workflow... Manual, stop-down metering took me back to the 1950s! Not gonna do it... The results were a bit soft, too. Micro 4/3 lenses are REALLY nice. So I bit the bullet...

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