selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

That pretty well sums up why a monitor or a team of monitors is too much to hope for. Who would want the job?

Not only would they be required to watch for people who misbehave, they would also need to be sufficiently knowledgeable to weed out the posters who insist on misinforming, which may be worse.

We have just been subjected to six days of misbehavior and misinformation from a single individual. Who would be qualified and willing to nip that sort of behavior in the bud? Any volunteers?

Even with the overwhelming condemnation he received for both his misinformation and his misbehavior, there will likely be no consequences. Too bad!

Nevertheless, like a couple of bad actors who preceded him, he may have made such a spectacle of himself that he will be shunned in the future.

AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire

Yup.

Eventually, the disingenuous or insincere narcissists out themselves.

There are always a few, in any open forum. But there are so many sincere, open minded, and knowledgeable contributors that the benefits far outweigh the tolerance of a few trolls. It took me a while, to be honest, but sorting the sincere from the insincere is easier than many people think. It just takes some time and some following of the "body of work".

Andy

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

No, there is no cure!
Most people with cameras don’t know much about photography, so they immerse themselves in the tech end which is void of talent. One only needs to spend a lot of time on google to become tech savvy.
So the REAL part of photography is avoided, lest you show how little you really know.
There are those that talk big put don’t post shots. Again, lest we actually see how little the know.
So the easy part of photography is tech, it’s essy to learn and makes you sound like a photographer, so THAT’s where most discussions will center or go.
It’s EASY to say you are/were a pro, but MUCH HARDER to back it up with that level image. Thus the fall back is the warm and fuzzy...., lenses, cameras, filters, sensors, DSLR vs ML blah blah blah!
At least that’s what I think! LoL
SS

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

Appreciated! Not sure I follow your last two sentences, but if you mean I created that topic in FYC in relation to my commentary here, it was really just coincidence! I thought of discussing the Rule of Odds after ebrunner's reference to composition in https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-549783-1.html. Sometime later I came up with probably not-so-brilliant idea to post this column

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

I think you're onto something, SS, which is why I would love to see the "portfolio" feature you suggested awhile back and why I would want to see its being filled a requirement of posting in main forum

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Each section has its own personality.

You asked in your opening post, "Is there an easy answer to why are there so few topics of substance here - outside of gear, software and travel destinations? Is there a cure?"

You can say pretty much the same thing about Photo Critique, For Your Consideration and other sections where opinions are discussed. Their topics are pretty much focused on a theme. The section's volume is so low that they can be easily monitored.

The danger in this isolation is that a section can become taken over by a small clique of individuals who may not actually be qualified to address matters of importance or interest to the general population. Like Street Photography, the section can become the private domain of repeat contributors to the exclusion of new ideas. Non-conformity is rejected through banning or exclusion in order to avoid the occurrence of prolonged arguments or discussions.

At least we can be confident that the Main Photography Discussion is not going to be dominated by a small clique. General access provides a democratic way to stifle the rants of fools, hypocrites and frauds. While discussions often seem to be mundane and repetitious (as they are often in the discussion sections), there is rarely a need to delete posts or banish a thread to the Attic.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

As I recall, the story of Street vs. Traditional Street and Architecture is far different from FYC or Critique forum. It's misleading for you to lump them all together. But since you have, I will address a couple of your comments. Think of them as clarifications if you wish, as I am not going to debate:

Critique Forum was created with great optimism. Hindsight being what it is, had there been thoughts along the lines of the "Advice from the Pros" section, the section might have been more valuable. However, aside from the trolls which were ultimately banished (and found a new home in For Your Consideration for a time), I'm confident you can look back and find much thoughtful and helpful feedback from a number of individuals. The past year, with the notable lack of absence of the moderators, the section has deteriorated significantly:

to include attacks on OP's, attacks from one respondent to another, and a total ignoring of the guidelines that say post a single photo that you feel is finished and ready for critique - in the formal sense of the term.

Of course I am intimately acquainted with For Your Consideration. I never understood that label of clique because for the first two years, anyone new stumbling onto the section was warmly welcomed by several of the "regulars." All the discussion/share topics were designed to attract participation.

Regarding qualifications to offer feedback, the only one in FYC who asserted he spoke the Great Truths was billyspad. Everyone else made a point to say, "that's just my opinion."

Your use of "danger in isolation" plays into the clique mindset. IMO there are two primary reasons the specialty sections receive far fewer visitors and postings than Gallery or main discussion:

1. New members of UHH have to actively seek out and subscribe to everything except main, Gallery, chit-chat and a couple of the original sections. Those who rely solely on the Daily Digest, including long-term members, will not see any postings from a specialty section if they aren't subscribed.

2. There apparently just isn't that much interest in discussion beyond gear and software (main forum) or social sharing of photos in Gallery. In this thread burkphoto and Sharpshooter addressed the reality extremely well.

As far as your assertion that "there is rarely a need to delete posts or banish a thread to the Attic," yours and artbob's toxic threads about Perspective suggest your ideas about free speech are quite different from mine. But, yours is the UHH reality and mine is the dream

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Points well taken.

Occasionally, a trip to the Attic is needed, if only to bolster one's own sense of sanity. I find a lot of humor there, amidst the misinformation, prejudice, animus, fake news, even faker news, perversity, and power trips. Someone had a brilliant idea when they created that sandbox!

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

And maybe a little protective. That might explain the tone of your response.

You do him a disservice. His posts were intended to by humorous and he had fun along with winterrose. Maybe a lack of wit is a consequence of lack of wits. They showed that the regular members of FYC and Photo Critique may have been taking themselves a little too seriously.

Those two statements contradict each other but neither of them is accurate.

For starters, the discussion of perspective, which you initiated, ended up totaling about 47 pages. There was certainly plenty of interest.

Free speech is not the issue. Misinformation and outright lying must be challenged. artBob's false assertions began in your own thread but only a few people pointed out there that he was wrong.

Everyone who contributed did their best to point out his folly and his reactions were universally condemned. What's more, many people were entertained by the spectacle.

Most people found the threads interesting and educational. If you didn't learn something then that's your loss.

As for the threads being toxic, anyone can judge for themselves.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

My tone? For a moment I flashed back to the early 1970's - my "minority" days in the U.S. Navy - when I was surrounded by rampant sexism. Thank goodness we're in the enlightened 21st century

I would ask you to describe what "tone" you imagined (or why you seem to think being protective is a bad thing), but I just can't muster the energy to care. Good-bye, Scotty.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Is there an easy answer to why are there so few topics of substance here - outside of gear, software and travel destinations? Is there a cure”?

This question is part of Linda's very timely post and a good question it is. I don't usually like to answer question with another question but this time it might shed some light on the situation. This also speaks to bad online behavior and other problematic issues.

My question is “Are many photographers NUTS”! I use the word “nuts” as a plural adjective or a pronoun. My grammar is abominable so take your choice.

I realize that “nuts” or “crazy” is currently no longer a politically correct term for neurological or psychological disorders but I am sure y'all will forgive my use of the vernacular and rest assured that my tongue is deeply imbibed in my cheek as I write this post, however, it is wise to remember that “much truth is said in jest”!

Many of us have taken in a basic psychology course in high school or college or read a book or two on the subject. So... we quickly become AMATEUR psychologists- its fun and a hobby in itself. We bandy about terms like “paranoia, schizophrenia, pathological, depression, neurotic and psychotic” and assign theses conditions to our friends, neighbors adversaries and cohorts when we are displeased with their behaviors and wish to criticize them. Of course, we do understand that theses conditions, in actuality, are serious and devastating illness that must be diagnosed and treated by qualified professionals and nothing to joke about. I do, however, believe that all of us do have certain leanings and God forbid if any of us, for whatever cause, do go “ff the deep end” some of theses disorders may affect us. In other words, perhaps many of us are just a little “crazy” and that can be a good thing. Oftentimes, completely logical folks are boring and less creative. Many artistically inclined folks and even technical geniuses are somewhat “colorful” or eccentric.

The literature states that when some folks “act out” with bad behaviors and are exceptionally rude, negative, continuously aggressive, morose, always pessimistic, unnecessarily argumentative and/or just plain nasty and maliciously disruptive, there are usually underlying neurological or psychological causes. Sadly enough, some folks are leading very unhappy, unfulfilling lives, other are victims of abuse and bullying, may harbor have thoughts of inadequacy and simply take out their frustrations on others. Perhaps they try to remedy their badly deflated egos and poor self image by acting in an egotistical and egocentric manner. This is all sad and even more unfortunately, there are propel with congenital or acquired various imbalances in brain chemistry and or impaired functionality and suffer form serious behavioral an emotional episodes unless they are carefully medicated.

We want folks to be compassionate, understanding and kind in our online activities so perhaps we need to try and understand why some unpleasant behavior occurs. If we are any kind of “community” we need to understand that theses things occur in every neighborhood, organization and community so we need to come up with and develop some coping skills so as not to exacerbate the situation and preserve some enjoyment of our forum. There are some “grouchy” folks that may respond t some kindness and recognition and therby improve.

Some decades ago, a columnist at the now defunct Modern Photography Magazine wrote an article, coincidentally and interestingly enough, entitled “Are All Photographers Crazy”! Seems the author was a clinical psychologist turned photographer and had some scientific insight into the subject. He wrote that many guys who are obsessed with small sports cars with disproportionately large frontal engine compartments were not necessarily interested in racing or rally driving. Likewise, male photographers who were enchanted with very long telephoto lenses were not necessarily into photographing the stars and in both scenarios, the men were attracted to theses protuberances as they represented phallic symbols. Sick? UGH! Well- we have all heard and read “my camera/lens, flash is bigger, better and more expensive than yours”'...sounds familiar? He also alluded the the fact that many folks' activities in photography are linked to voyeurism, sexual exploitation and getting other folks to take their clothing off in the name or “art”! OK it was the 1960s! He also stated that there were enough other folks with exhibitionist tendencies who would gladly accommodate theses desire so harm done! Does this still happen- right here on our forum? No comment! Well some of it IS ART!

There, of course, is the ever popular obsessive and compulsive disorder which manifests itself in photographers as “gear acquisition syndrome”, AKA- GAS or as I like to call it gear-head-idness! Compulsive behavior can lead to serious hoarding, cause a person to make irrational decisions that can affect their financial and physical well being and destroy marital and family relationships. In milder manifestations it just leads some photographers to believe that and operate under the misconception that successful photography is mainly predicated on extremely expensive and advanced equipment rather than real talent, skills practice, hard work and resourcefulness. This is why there is no much preoccupation with gear and related technologies on this an most other photo- forums. Then again, one could be a very talented photographer with unlimited financial resources and wishes to have their very own “camera store” - why not!

Having only minimal knowledge of real psychology I venture to say that much of the unpleasant behavior ongoing in this forum is simply cases of extreme immaturity- adults who never grew up! Some of the shenanigans I see remind me of my junior high school (middle school) days when many teachers and pedagogical experts reluctantly and secretly admit that some of theses pre-adolescent and young teenagers are “animals”! The may engage in bullying, a kind of hazing that can create a living hell for newcomers to the class. Some become extreme “hall monitors, teacher's pets, class clowns, gossips, tattletales and other roles that they eventually will moderate and hopefully outgrow as the mature- some don't! . Many will call the studious and respectful kids “brown noses” and encourage them to misbehave so as to join the gang- mob mentality in the making. I think middle school was designed to isolate theses little monsters from the younger and more vulnerable elementary students and out of harm's way if the older, bigger and stronger high schoolers had to deal with them. Theses are the “awkward” years for kids, they are growing, the hormones are raging, they usually will mature as their brains develop and their experiences provide lessons learned. It's just that childish behavior is very obnoxious in grownups who can afford expensive camera gear and are involved in a serious hobby or profession. This is why we sometimes react with anger.

Then there is disingenuous behaviors- misleading information, exaggerated professional statuses, extreme hyperbole and lies. This is certainly not confined to photography or any other craft or profession. Just turn on your television set!

The remedy? Obviously there is not going to be any kind of strict moderation around here any time soon and nobody, it seems, wants to be the “hall monitor”! We do have a few “vigilantes” and the “grammar and spelling police” but they only exacerbate the issues and usually “throw gasoline on the fires”. Some folks come here to fight and cause as much chaos as possible but they also add to the advertising demographics and are not likely to be expelled unless they do something unremittingly terrible. Perhaps the best approach is “ignorance”, that word stems for “ignore”, that is, ignore the really outrageous stuff and don't engage trolls and feed their appetite for chaos. Don't give the ink, press or oxygen and don't legitimize their silliness with a response. If someone posts some really disingenuous or misleading information that can cause serious harm to equipment or even personal injury- just do you duty and say your piece. That is all you can do other than report it to the admin and hope for the best. Perhaps sending the OP who may be “victimized” a PM waning of impending disaster. I try not to prolong intransigents and incessant kicking of the proverbial dead horse. Sometimes troublemakers, bullies and folks who indulge in foolishness will just go away of nobody takes their bait.

If a conversation within a corrupted thread is worth saving, I try to use “quote replies” and only converse with intelligent and logical contributors. There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreements and debates as long as the are civil and put forth with good intentions. I do feel that once name-calling, personal attacks and extremely harsh behavior occurs, the offending posts should be immediately taken down- they serve no purpose and are offensive. And may discourage perfectly decent potential or existing members from participating.

Believe me, theses issues are not confined to forums like UHH. I used to be very active in my professional photographers association. I served as vice-president and later president of my locale chapter and wrote many articles in our magazine and newsletter. At times the “politics” were unbearable and professional jealously raged. I needed to be made of iron to cope with some of the meetings that just about resulted in mortal combat. Oftentimes, creative and artistic folks can be difficult to coordinate with. The benefits, however, of sharing, and associating with- well, I don't like to say “like-minded” people but folks who share many common interests can outweigh the difficulties.

Keep the faith folks! Kindest regards!

PS. check out the next reply- I created a still life for y'all including my craziest camera .

Also- the younger folks may not know what a real “gear head” looks like. We all know about ball-heads, pan-heads, tilt-heads but those are virtual toys compared to a gear-head They were used atop big solid tripods and heavy duty camera stands to support big heavy cameras. The tilt was controlled by a gear mechanism and activated by cranking. The camera could not lunge forward and kill you fingers! Similar heads were employed in cinematography for smooth panning and tilting. Pictured ins my old reliable Majestic head made in a Chicago iron foundry back in the 1950s. Still works!
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artBob Loc: Near Chicago

I am that person Andy H and Tri-x wrote about.
I wondered what was going on in the threads we were in. It's not the first time hostilities broke out. I've even seen folks who were friends of each other break up because of a difference. Having dug into it a bit, there seem to be several reasons for the hostility. It seems some people need to feel superior, and have to correct someone, even if it is not true/appropriate (fake news, anyone?). It is a psychologically proven fact that if someone's "belief" is continually challenged by a fact that disproves it, they either totally disengage or get hostile. Another wise revelation is that each of us believes our fallible self is really the idealized image of our belief system. Challenged by someone else who believes his fallible self is really the idealized image of his belief system, seeing "evil" and "degeneration" in the other is not uncommon.

I would like to say in defense of myself not being "fake" or "doing it for attention," I am retired from teaching over 30 years. I was "doing it" because I thought facts are important in general, and, as this had impacts on photographing, worth trying to clear up.

It adds to the mystery that two people here, apparently decent, got all riled up, and I responded in kind.

Going on as positively as we can seems the best solution, but I have trouble not practicing reciprocity when someone comes at me aggressively.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

My essential equipment and literature. A portrait of a "Gear Head"

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Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

Of the vocal and actively involved members of UHH, you are among my top five favorites, Ed Your essays are thoughtful, thought-provoking, logical, compassionate and evolved. Many thanks for contributing to this thread!

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Consider your statement that, "yours and artbob's toxic threads about Perspective suggest your ideas about free speech are quite different from mine. But, yours is the UHH reality and mine is the dream " I don't think that you quite grasp the spirit of "free speech".

I started Does perspective change when you change the focal length? because you blocked me from responding on your original thread on perspective but let artBob continue to post his misinformation. You removed me from your Ignore list because you were called out for doing it and relented. Otherwise, we would not be having this conversation.

Does free speech apply only to what you say and to people who agree with you? Ask billyspad. Do you have a problem accepting opposing views? The use of the Ignore feature and banning of people from a forum for pointing out misinformation and even outright fraud is certainly not compatible with the spirit of free speech.

As you say, "your ideas about free speech are quite different from mine. . But, yours is the UHH reality and mine is the dream" I guess it is your dream that speech that is inconsistent with what you think should be stifled. Back in the 1960's we called that being uptight, among other things.

So now I'm back on your Ignore list. Thank you, you just proved my point!

PS: Controversial topics generate interest, traffic and heat. And you know what they say to people who can't take the heat ...