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Aug 16, 2018 20:40:32   #
SharpShooter Loc: NorCal
 
ConnieLynn wrote:
A client wanted a picture for her website. The first shoot was kind of my fault, took her to a college campus on a windy day. None of these pictures were very good. Had a second shoot in her flower shop. I thought we got some great shot of her this time. Well I guess I may have offended her by cleaning up some of her features. ie: whiten teeth, removed moles, smooth some wrinkled skin etc. She told me she liked theses pictures but her collar was too wrinkled. Now I just have not learned how to iron clothes in photoshop. And she told me "she must have needed more help than she thought". So, I did not charge anything and she has the digital photos and can use them if she wants to.

Does everyone else assume the client wants there yellow teeth whiten, moles removed etc. Some clients are just not photogenic, I tried and think this one has bit me!

ConnieLynn
A client wanted a picture for her website. The fir... (show quote)

I ask!
SS

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Aug 16, 2018 21:45:06   #
User ID
 
ConnieLynn wrote:


A client wanted a picture for her website.
The first shoot was kind of my fault, took
her to a college campus on a windy day.
None of these pictures were very good.
..........



You quit the job. That's how you handle
failing to deliver. You blow it, you're done.
No do-over.


`

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Aug 16, 2018 22:00:16   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Fine portraiture is my first love in photography. That's why, although I have branched out into many othere professional areas in the business, I still, after over 50 years, offer portrait work at my studio. So take this from an old guy who as been at it for a lifetime.

Portraiture is tough stuff- it ain't alwas easy because you are not only only dealing with a good deal of technical issues- camera handling, lighting, posing retouching- the basic stuff but you are dealing with people's vanity- egos, self image, taste, self confidence a or lack thereof of any of theses psychological aspects or attributes. Once you master, at least, some of the techniques, you need to be ready to be a professional photographer and an amateur psychologist, entertainer, wardrobe master, family counselor and so much more depending on what day of the week it is.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure- so goes the old adage and when it comes to portrait photography, you need a TON of prevention. In most cases, I won't embark on a portrait assignemnt without a an advance pre-setting consultation so I can find out exactly what folks expect and make certain that I can deliver it. Since most portrait sessions are not impromptu or candid events and we can get to plan things out, it's important to carefully orchestrate everything such as location, time of day, clothing choices, makeup, hairstyle, props and whatever else is vital to success and customer satisfaction. It's especially important to prevent and preclude whatever can go wrong so we need to head off Mr. Murphy at the pass.

Post processing and retouching, as we called in in the olden days, is certainly a part of successful portraiture but it can also be an unmitigated nightmare. So again- shooting technique and planning to the rescue! Controlling the aesthetics before and during the shoot, avoids radical correction after the fact. My theory is that so many aesthetic issues can be addressed in posing, lighting, perhaps some soft focus or diffusion, employing flattering camera positions (angles) and developing a fluid and fast technique that captures expressions and relaxes the subjects- it's bad if you fumble with your gear and lights and end up "torturing" the customers. You gotta also develop eagle eyes and become a incessant fusspot when it comes to attention to detail and be on the lookout for wrinkled clothing, crooked neckties or necklaces, seemingly ill-fitting garments, bad postures, and whatever else may come back to haunt you in post processing and worse- when it comes back to bite you in the rear end when selection of the "proofs" as we used to call the original images, are scrutinized by a dissatisfied customer. If you are in the BUSINESS, you want good sales. If you are hobbyist or enthusiast and doing it for free- at least, you want accolades and appreciation rather than disappointment and aggravation.

"Retouching" can be a dirty word! There is nothing wrong with all the softening and whitening stuff that it at our disposal. The digital and electronic methodologies are wondrous. Problem is, many of the younger and newer photographers have no training or experience in the old fashioned manual retouching techniques and theory. We old dudes and and girls were made to understand that good retouching is invisible and does not call attention to itself, otherwise it looks "plastic" and artificial. When we started out we all were a bit overzealous with the lead pencils, etching knives and dies. Me too! That is until my first boss and mentor explained that we are PHOTOGRAPHERS not ELBLAMBERS! Then I got it. The most important aspect of retouching is what to retouch and what NOT to retouch and WHEN TO STOP RETOUCHING! Good retouchers, like good photographers, study facial structures as well. Try to remember that nobody has alabaster complexions and "day glo" eyeballs and teeth and you will be far ahead of the game.

Remember to do "pre-retouching"- if the camera position, pose and lighting are right, if the hair, makeup and clothing are attended to, you won't have to do "plastic surgery, hairdressing, makeup and day cleaning and alterations" on your computer screen which can resulta whole lot of eye strain, a bad case of carpal tunnel syndrome and a terrible pain in the gluteus-maximus. You portrats will look more natural and lovely too!

Regards!

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Aug 17, 2018 07:10:41   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
ConnieLynn wrote:
A client wanted a picture for her website. The first shoot was kind of my fault, took her to a college campus on a windy day. None of these pictures were very good. Had a second shoot in her flower shop. I thought we got some great shot of her this time. Well I guess I may have offended her by cleaning up some of her features. ie: whiten teeth, removed moles, smooth some wrinkled skin etc. She told me she liked theses pictures but her collar was too wrinkled. Now I just have not learned how to iron clothes in photoshop. And she told me "she must have needed more help than she thought". So, I did not charge anything and she has the digital photos and can use them if she wants to.

Does everyone else assume the client wants there yellow teeth whiten, moles removed etc. Some clients are just not photogenic, I tried and think this one has bit me!

ConnieLynn
A client wanted a picture for her website. The fir... (show quote)


These are the clients photographs.
Never make major change without asking first or at worst show original and a heavily modified version.
Many "Pros" regardless of profession think that they know better than the client. I get most of my architecture jobs because the client says I was the first professional they talked to that listened, asked questions, made an effort to understand what was being really asked for etc.
Never ASSUME.

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Aug 17, 2018 07:48:53   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
ConnieLynn wrote:
A client wanted a picture for her website. The first shoot was kind of my fault, took her to a college campus on a windy day. None of these pictures were very good. Had a second shoot in her flower shop. I thought we got some great shot of her this time. Well I guess I may have offended her by cleaning up some of her features. ie: whiten teeth, removed moles, smooth some wrinkled skin etc. She told me she liked theses pictures but her collar was too wrinkled. Now I just have not learned how to iron clothes in photoshop. And she told me "she must have needed more help than she thought". So, I did not charge anything and she has the digital photos and can use them if she wants to.

Does everyone else assume the client wants there yellow teeth whiten, moles removed etc. Some clients are just not photogenic, I tried and think this one has bit me!

ConnieLynn
A client wanted a picture for her website. The fir... (show quote)

Welcome to client photography.

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Aug 17, 2018 08:04:12   #
dcampbell52 Loc: Clearwater Fl
 
ConnieLynn wrote:
A client wanted a picture for her website. The first shoot was kind of my fault, took her to a college campus on a windy day. None of these pictures were very good. Had a second shoot in her flower shop. I thought we got some great shot of her this time. Well I guess I may have offended her by cleaning up some of her features. ie: whiten teeth, removed moles, smooth some wrinkled skin etc. She told me she liked theses pictures but her collar was too wrinkled. Now I just have not learned how to iron clothes in photoshop. And she told me "she must have needed more help than she thought". So, I did not charge anything and she has the digital photos and can use them if she wants to.

Does everyone else assume the client wants there yellow teeth whiten, moles removed etc. Some clients are just not photogenic, I tried and think this one has bit me!

ConnieLynn
A client wanted a picture for her website. The fir... (show quote)


I always show the client the unedited pics first then explain what I can do. I will even do a couple of "ink jet" prints of one or two of the "more promising" photos and then use a grease pencil to draw proposed crops on them. This is just to give the client an idea of what can be done. Then, I will make a "second" sit down and show those images cropped. This is one reason that I love Adobe Lightroom.. I can create a couple or three virtual copies and edit each separately. Then I can set the client in front of the computer and make edits to the image with them there. Finally, I will make an inkjet "final" print of the image and have them sign off (on the print) that this is what they want. If they change their mind later.. there will be additional editing charges. OH and the customer NEVER/EVER gets a copy of the raw/jpg of the images. They get Prints only, unless they want to pay extra.

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Aug 17, 2018 08:12:56   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
ConnieLynn wrote:
A client wanted a picture for her website. The first shoot was kind of my fault, took her to a college campus on a windy day. None of these pictures were very good. Had a second shoot in her flower shop. I thought we got some great shot of her this time. Well I guess I may have offended her by cleaning up some of her features. ie: whiten teeth, removed moles, smooth some wrinkled skin etc. She told me she liked theses pictures but her collar was too wrinkled. Now I just have not learned how to iron clothes in photoshop. And she told me "she must have needed more help than she thought". So, I did not charge anything and she has the digital photos and can use them if she wants to.

Does everyone else assume the client wants there yellow teeth whiten, moles removed etc. Some clients are just not photogenic, I tried and think this one has bit me!

ConnieLynn
A client wanted a picture for her website. The fir... (show quote)


I did a shoot for a local playhouse - head shots - and I ran the pictures through Portrait Pro. They absolutely loved the results. Generally speaking, people don't like the way they look. I would suggest that in the future, you find a tactful way to ask if your client wants to look "better."

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Aug 17, 2018 09:26:17   #
James R. Kyle Loc: Saint Louis, Missouri (A Suburb of Ferguson)
 
PixelStan77 wrote:
I deliver images as she/ he is. I never assume she/h wants upgrades to her body UNLESS she/he requests it.I think you handled the business part OK, however, I would ask her if she wants an image as she is?


==============

YES! = Correct way.

See Photo Attached ---- The Marks of Age. (Does my shirt need Ironing?)

=0=



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Aug 17, 2018 10:18:40   #
Toby
 
ConnieLynn wrote:
A client wanted a picture for her website. The first shoot was kind of my fault, took her to a college campus on a windy day. None of these pictures were very good. Had a second shoot in her flower shop. I thought we got some great shot of her this time. Well I guess I may have offended her by cleaning up some of her features. ie: whiten teeth, removed moles, smooth some wrinkled skin etc. She told me she liked theses pictures but her collar was too wrinkled. Now I just have not learned how to iron clothes in photoshop. And she told me "she must have needed more help than she thought". So, I did not charge anything and she has the digital photos and can use them if she wants to.

Does everyone else assume the client wants there yellow teeth whiten, moles removed etc. Some clients are just not photogenic, I tried and think this one has bit me!

ConnieLynn
A client wanted a picture for her website. The fir... (show quote)


I don't do many portraits but when I do I use these rules. If there is a temporary condition i.e. blemishes I will remove them if there are only a few. If many I will lighten them slightly (more if requested). I never remove moles or other permanent marks unless requested. As for the eyes I try to brighten the whites and iris only very slightly. I also whiten teeth slightly. My goal is to have a great portrait with nothing standing out. All features are basically normal but as seen on their best day. You cannot tell I made an adjustment unless you look at the before and after files.
I may take one photo and put extra editing into it just to show customer what can be done but explaining that I don’t think it is necessary so as to not insult them.

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Aug 17, 2018 10:48:59   #
NCMtnMan Loc: N. Fork New River, Ashe Co., NC
 
Most of us guys have learned that the answer is always "You look great!" Do not ever point out any short comings. They already know how it looks, and they will change it if they choose to.

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Aug 17, 2018 10:51:10   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
Toby wrote:
I don't do many portraits but when I do I use these rules. If there is a temporary condition i.e. blemishes I will remove them if there are only a few. If many I will lighten them slightly (more if requested). I never remove moles or other permanent marks unless requested. As for the eyes I try to brighten the whites and iris only very slightly. I also whiten teeth slightly. My goal is to have a great portrait with nothing standing out. All features are basically normal but as seen on their best day. You cannot tell I made an adjustment unless you look at the before and after files.
I may take one photo and put extra editing into it just to show customer what can be done but explaining that I don’t think it is necessary so as to not insult them.
I don't do many portraits but when I do I use thes... (show quote)


I do business portraits, and I do very light and subtle retouching without asking that I feel will not be noticeable unless viewed side by side with the original. Anything more I do if they ask about it. I never get complaints that I did too much. My goal is when someone who knows the person sees the photo, they will say, "that's a really good photo of you".

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Aug 17, 2018 11:04:10   #
James R. Kyle Loc: Saint Louis, Missouri (A Suburb of Ferguson)
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
I do business portraits, and I do very light and subtle retouching without asking that I feel will not be noticeable unless viewed side by side with the original. Anything more I do if they ask about it. I never get complaints that I did too much. My goal is when someone who knows the person sees the photo, they will say, "that's a really good photo of you".


---------------

"Minimalism" -- A LITTLE Goes a LONG Way. :-)

Good Avice.

=0=

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Aug 17, 2018 12:45:20   #
drklrd Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
 
amfoto1 wrote:
Every client is different!

I often do some "retouching".... But I almost always keep it very subtle and would never try to make an 80 year old look like she'd 18 again!

Do they think of that as a "mole" or as a "beauty mark"? I'd leave it... maybe tone it down slightly... and see the reaction. Then if they ask you to remove it... well that's another thing!

When I shot film, for feminine portraits I frequently used "black mesh" and "black splatter" filters that reduced fine detail slightly. I still occasionally use those filters with digital, but much the same can be accomplished in post processing. Masculine portraits are another matter... often can be a lot more "harsh reality".

IMO, retouching has to be kept to a minimum... It's very easy to overdo. Using Photoshop, I'll often do the work on a separate layer, then with the images sized to approx. it's planned use on my monitor, adjust layer transparency to visually decide how much of the retouching to apply to the image.

As to the wrinkled collar.... Clothing, background, even make-up are all things you need to be acutely aware of and can better deal with BEFORE pressing the shutter release. It's no different with a portrait than a scenic shot or architecture, or whatever. The other day someone posted a scenic shot and there was a bright red plastic Dixie cup lying in one corner of the image. All I could think while viewing the photo was "Wouldn't it have been easy to pick that up first, so that it wouldn't be in the image?" I've seen the same with real estate/architecture photos where tubes of toothpaste were lying on the bathroom counter or a dish with a half-eaten sandwich was left on the kitchen counter or kid's/pet's toys lying about on the floor of a room. It's usually pretty easy to retouch things out digitally (if there aren't too many of them), but why not just deal with the "issues" before taking the shot?

That collar might have been possible to deal with simply by rearranging her clothing slightly or by using a clothes pin around behind her, had you noticed it before taking the photo.

Posing people is challenging. There are a lot of little "tricks" that can be used to deal with individual "problems".... For example, slight repositioning of the camera and/or adjustment of the person's pose and how their head is positioned can avoid a double chin or wrinkling of their neck.

When I was shooting a lot more portraits, I had a three-ring binder with pages of line drawings of poses for individuals, couples and small groups, that I could use for my own reference and to show the model(s). Still have that book somewhere... I'll get it back out if and when I find myself doing more portrait work.

I also sometimes used a sample book of photos to discuss image style with customers... various types of lighting and levels of retouching. (And I had a "clip file" of other peoples' images, mostly taken from magazines, for my own reference.)

Monte Zucker was a master of portraiture by available light.... if you can find any of his books, grab them and read them for ideas. There are a number of other books on portraiture that might be worth a read, but Monte's are always among the first that come to my mind. His style looks very natural, relaxed and unposed. But I bet a lot of care and work went into each and every shot.
Every client is different! br br I often do some... (show quote)


Monte Zucker was a great photographer and did many seminars. I loved the fact that he would after a seminar sit around with the studio and freelance photographers and discuss business and posing. Same went for David Ziser.(hope I spelled his last name right)

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Aug 17, 2018 12:49:24   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
ConnieLynn wrote:
A client wanted a picture for her website. The first shoot was kind of my fault, took her to a college campus on a windy day. None of these pictures were very good. Had a second shoot in her flower shop. I thought we got some great shot of her this time. Well I guess I may have offended her by cleaning up some of her features. ie: whiten teeth, removed moles, smooth some wrinkled skin etc. She told me she liked theses pictures but her collar was too wrinkled. Now I just have not learned how to iron clothes in photoshop. And she told me "she must have needed more help than she thought". So, I did not charge anything and she has the digital photos and can use them if she wants to.

Does everyone else assume the client wants there yellow teeth whiten, moles removed etc. Some clients are just not photogenic, I tried and think this one has bit me!

ConnieLynn
A client wanted a picture for her website. The fir... (show quote)


Proofs...

In the film era, we made 4x5, 4x6, or 5x5 proof prints of color-corrected but unretouched negatives.

Today, it is more common to have a client come to your studio and view the proofs on a big, calibrated and profiled monitor in a controlled setting.

I don’t finish beyond basic color adjustment before I get an order. Retouching is a chargeable service, and very personal. So the client should tell you what to fix.

Wrinkles in clothing should be dealt with before photography. Note wrinkles on site, and offer a chance to change or iron. OR, carry a few sizes of typical clothing.

Better studios will use a pre-photography brochure to suggest actions such as:

Schedule a haircut appointment a few days before the session. Bring several changes of clothes. Iron wrinkled fabrics. Read our retouch options. Here’s what to expect...

Inform ahead, never assume, and leave as little as possible to chance.

Finally, avoid offering more options than you can count on two hands. To do so is to encourage indecision!

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Aug 17, 2018 14:16:38   #
josquin1 Loc: Massachusetts
 
something a mortician might do.

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