Rant at the professional
Jul 25, 2018 05:21:07 #
I’m at my nephews wedding. I’m quiet in the background and VERY discreet with no flash. All thru the wedding the so called (very pregnant) professional stands to take shots and uses her flash. 1 - have things changed where weddings aren’t sacred any more? 2 - is it ok to get in everyone’s way to get the shot?
Jul 25, 2018 09:43:14 #
Hi Digger.
Well, to answer quicly. These are my opinions. It will be interesting to see what others say.
1. Depends on the official. If the official says "go ahead and use flash" then by golly, I will. I don't snap 200 photos of the ceremony, just because 90% of the wedding looks the same with people standing up there, facing the official, and the official reading, or speaking to the couple. My job is to get the best shots I can of the special moments of the ceremony. Entrance, grooms face when he sees the bride for the first time, one shot of the ceremony, the rings, candle or sand ceremony, the kiss, the recessional. If I can get stunning, beautifully lit wedding photos for the couple, then I will. I refuse to actually go up on the altar itself, but these photos are for the couple's album, and they are paying good money for them. My job isn't to make everyone else's photos good.
2. Yes. As I said above, my duty is to the couple, not people in the audience who want to take photos. My entire crew knows that we aren't the subjects of the wedding, and we try to be unobtrusive, but during the parts of the ceremony that will be in the album, yes, it's fine to stand up, and do what it takes.
3. What bothers me more is when the official says "no flash" or better yet, they make an announcement stating that there is a professional photographer here, and the couple requests that you just enjoy the ceremony and not take photos... then during the ceremony, I'm honoring the wishes of not using flash, when several guests are flashing their cameras during the whole thing.
I've been to weddings with videographers walking circles around the official and couple during the whole ceremony, and I can't get a decent shot without him/her there. I just shoot with the person in it. It is a record of how things went.
Your photo is very nice and captures emotion. Since it's not for their wedding album, but just a record of the event, I don't see an issue with having the photographer in your shot.
Just my 2 cents.
Well, to answer quicly. These are my opinions. It will be interesting to see what others say.
1. Depends on the official. If the official says "go ahead and use flash" then by golly, I will. I don't snap 200 photos of the ceremony, just because 90% of the wedding looks the same with people standing up there, facing the official, and the official reading, or speaking to the couple. My job is to get the best shots I can of the special moments of the ceremony. Entrance, grooms face when he sees the bride for the first time, one shot of the ceremony, the rings, candle or sand ceremony, the kiss, the recessional. If I can get stunning, beautifully lit wedding photos for the couple, then I will. I refuse to actually go up on the altar itself, but these photos are for the couple's album, and they are paying good money for them. My job isn't to make everyone else's photos good.
2. Yes. As I said above, my duty is to the couple, not people in the audience who want to take photos. My entire crew knows that we aren't the subjects of the wedding, and we try to be unobtrusive, but during the parts of the ceremony that will be in the album, yes, it's fine to stand up, and do what it takes.
3. What bothers me more is when the official says "no flash" or better yet, they make an announcement stating that there is a professional photographer here, and the couple requests that you just enjoy the ceremony and not take photos... then during the ceremony, I'm honoring the wishes of not using flash, when several guests are flashing their cameras during the whole thing.
I've been to weddings with videographers walking circles around the official and couple during the whole ceremony, and I can't get a decent shot without him/her there. I just shoot with the person in it. It is a record of how things went.
Your photo is very nice and captures emotion. Since it's not for their wedding album, but just a record of the event, I don't see an issue with having the photographer in your shot.
Just my 2 cents.
Jul 25, 2018 22:57:53 #
Digger1 wrote:
Not sure what "very pregnant" adds to the question or conversation but the "so called professional" is the professional because she was the paid photographer vs just a guest. Not sure what question #1 means or asks - doubt if God has opinion on flash one way or the other. #2 - yes, if no problem with couple vs guests.All thru the wedding the so called (very pregnant) professional stands to take shots and uses her flash. 1 - have things changed where weddings aren’t sacred any more? 2 - is it ok to get in everyone’s way to get the shot?
Opinion based on shooting 350ish weddings in a different life.
Jul 25, 2018 23:03:24 #
bkyser wrote:
These are my opinions. My job is to get the best shots I can of the special moments of the ceremony. My job isn't to make everyone else's photos good.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
Jul 26, 2018 07:27:18 #
Stardust - thank you for the reply. 350 weddings jumps out at me since I don't go to very many. You see more of whats going on in the wedding industry than I do and thats why I needed to ask others opinions. Maybe God really doesn't care about the flash - and if the pastor says go for it I guess you do.
Jul 26, 2018 07:31:27 #
Your point #2 is well taken - you have a duty to the couple. If that is what they ordered, so be it. This was sort of a new church with fewer rules. The times are changing.
Thank you for commenting.
Thank you for commenting.
Jul 26, 2018 13:43:09 #
Digger1 wrote:
Your point #2 is well taken - you have a duty to the couple. If that is what they ordered, so be it. This was sort of a new church with fewer rules. The times are changing.
Thank you for commenting.
Thank you for commenting.
Thanks for posting the question. There are as many opinions as there are people. I appreciate the fact that we can all learn a little.
Just one suggestion, make sure you hit "quote reply" instead of just replying, or quick replying, that way people know who you are directing your answer/question to when commenting.
Honestly, these are things you need to work out before hand. Talk to the couple multiple times, and ALWAYS talk to the official before hand, I usually call the pastor even before the rehearsal, because he/she will be busy at the rehearsal, and the wedding party takes precedence.
Thankfully, I've actually gotten to know several pastors in town, so I know what most of them expect before hand, but I still like to call, just to re-familiarize myself with what they want/expect.
bk
Jul 26, 2018 14:03:06 #
Digger1 wrote:
Your point #2 is well taken - you have a duty to the couple. If that is what they ordered, so be it. This was sort of a new church with fewer rules. The times are changing.
Thank you for commenting.
Thank you for commenting.
Agree with almost all of bkyser's statements . . . but I don't think times are changing all that much.
I shot my first wedding in 1960 . . . and the last one last month. With hundreds of weddings under my belt, I have only been restricted from using flash twice. In both cases the brides and grooms were extremely unhappy, and had they known before booking the church and paying their deposits, would have chosen different venues. After all . . . they were their weddings and not that of the officiates.
Over the years there was a number of "churches" that had restrictions that were easily persuaded to allow flash from the pro photographers only, with just a little negotiation. In fact, it is not the rule of the "churches", but that of the officiates who love to control. (I'll probably catch some flack for that statement)
I think that what we all have to keep in mind, as photographers or guests, is that the wedding is for the bride and groom. The photographers have to remember that they are not the most important part of the event . . . and the guests are not invited to critique the choices of the bride and groom, but to share the joy of the day.
Just my humble opinion of course . . .
Jul 26, 2018 17:19:08 #
Hi Weddingguy - thank you for commenting. This has been a learning experience. There maybe won't be too many more family weddings to go to for me so this was one time for me to get something no one else had. Someone in another wedding thread made the point that truly experienced and refined professionals make all the difference. Being prepared, knowing lighting and posing, people skills etc. I wish I had read more of the threads before going to this wedding. If nothing else, my attitude would be way different !!
Weddingguy wrote:
Agree with almost all of bkyser's statements . . .... (show quote)
Jul 27, 2018 09:53:59 #
Weddingguy wrote:
Agree with almost all of bkyser's statements . . .... (show quote)
Wow, just goes to show you how different things can be in different regions. All but about 2 churches I deal with fairly regularly ban flash during the ceremony, because the pastors say it's distracting to either them, or to the guests. I just get angry when they make an announcement, and the guests ignore the rules as far as flash goes.
When it comes to guests popping up in font of me, I've been doing it long enough to know where to be when, and if it still happens, that's what reenactment is for. I'm telling you, I love it when a couple listens and gives more than just 1/2 hour between the ceremony and reception, so I have time to get the formals done, let the family and party go, reenact the big scenes, let the pastor go, then still have time to get some more elegant, artsy, or fun shots of the couple outside, or at a park.
I still have a rough time getting past mothers with the "bad luck to see the bride." part. The couples all seem to quickly agree to "first looks," but as soon as the mothers get involved, we end up going back to being rushed, and not being able to get the beautiful shots that the bride wants because she spends 20 hours a day on pinterist and the knot.
That's where the people skills and organization to be able to blow through the family groupings, and wedding party shots, so you can still try to work in a few "pinterist worthy" photos.
bk
Jul 28, 2018 13:33:48 #
Hi Folks!
I am not the oldest practicing professional wedding photographer on earth, but I am getting there- I lost count many decades ago! Possibly in the thousands of weddings and other social events. So...here's my thoughts and observation on the conversation. There are frequent posts "complaining" about the "obtrusive" wedding photographer, disgruntled guests, crankie officiants and a litany of wedding related horror stories. Fortunately enough, I have seen very little of this in real life and in real time!
Think about this- if one is a practicing, retired or ex- wedding shooter or an avid photography enthusiast, they are more likely to be aware of the photographer while attending a wedding ceremony as a guest, a member of the bridal party or a family member. As photographers, we tend to do this- we observe the photographer's movements, we check out their gear and perhaps we watch for less than graceful and smooth performance. Unless the photographer makes a complete spectacle of themselves or does something totally outrageous, the rest of the folks couldn't care less. The bride and groom are totally wrapped up in each other, the families' and guests' attention SHOULD be on the couple and the bridal party and the clergy-person or the officiant SHOULD be concentrating on their religious and/or fiduciary/legal responsibilities- not supervising the photographer.
Come on folks, the "following", "candid" wedding photgraher (before we called them photojournalists or portraitists) has been a fixture at weddings since the end of WWII. I would like to think that people would be used to this by now! The days of the 4x5 press camera, noisy Grafmatic film holders, flashbulbs and film wrappers left behind, littering the church floor, are long gone. Clattering motor drives, medium format mirror slap- NADA! Even the most discreet, experienced, savvy and nimble shooter is not gonna be INVISIBLE but can usually blend in nicely.
A truly professional wedding photgraher will know how to conduct themselves, dress and easily navigate at a religious or solemn ceremony. Of course, we will plan ahead, follow rules and regulations, secure all required permissions and work around obstacles. We are not there to interrupt or desecrate a religious or civil event- we are there, on behalf of the bride and groom, to provide an artistic and historical record of the religious or binding aspect of their wedding. If there are restrictions as to our proximity to the ceremony area, the use of flash or anything else, the client is advised, well n advance, as to the limitations that may impact on their coverage so that the don't expect what we can not produce. With today's digital technology, fast and variable focal length lenses and incredible post processing possibilities, there is hardly a scenario that can't be captured unless we are entirely barred from the venue!
It would be foolish to just barge into a church or other venue without proper clearance and approval from all parties concerned. Everyone involved needs to be on the same page.
Problem is, there are folks out there who take on wedding assignments who are, in fact, NOT experienced bonafied professionals. Oftentimes they find themselves in a awkward positions, fumble with their gear, over-shoot and move too slowly. Then folks, officiants and amateur photographers paint all wedding "photographers" with the same brush and the stories of the "obtrusive" wedding shooters resurface once again!
Of course, rules, regulations, traditions, norms and what is considered acceptable will vary greatly from one geographic location to another and among different religious and cultural groups. It behooves the real professionals to familiarize themselves with all of theses variations and equip themselves and plan accordingly. For many years, during the film era, I used a Hasselbald system for weddings- noisy as heck! In cavernous churches the noise was somewhat amplified so I kept a Rolleiflex TLR on hand- totally noiseless! At Catholic ceremonies, during the Nuptial Mass, I would wait for the organ to blair and nobody would hear my Hasselblad noise. Perhaps, nowadays, a mirrorless camera with fast lens would be an essential asset.
Pregnant photographer?! Hey, it's 2018! Pregnant ladies are no longer confined to a hospital bed, even in their last trimesters. Many work at their jobs right into the ther 9th month and go back to work shortly after childbirth! No more concealing "maternity suits"- they are out there strutting their stuff! When I started out, in the New York City Metropolitan Area, there were two female wedding photographers, among hundreds. Nowadays the girls are out there, just as many as the guys, and doing fine work! Back in the day, I can't recall any brides with visible tattoos or grooms with long beards and hair buns- unless it had to do with their religions. Years ago, most weddings were conducted in churches, synagogues, city halls. temples and catering establishments with chapel facilities. These days, man! I have worked at weddings in barnyards, parks, aboard a sightseeing boat, at botanical gardens, museums, backyards and living rooms! Oftentimes wedding ceremonies are not all that solomon- they ain't like "funerals" and an occasional flash of light is not gonna offend, blind or shock anyone. Yes- times have changed but hopefully, common sense, kindness, consideration respect and professionalism still prevail.
Now...who wants to talk about dozens of guests darting about with their cellphone and cameras too?! Nah...let's save that rant for next time.
Kindest regards, Ed
I am not the oldest practicing professional wedding photographer on earth, but I am getting there- I lost count many decades ago! Possibly in the thousands of weddings and other social events. So...here's my thoughts and observation on the conversation. There are frequent posts "complaining" about the "obtrusive" wedding photographer, disgruntled guests, crankie officiants and a litany of wedding related horror stories. Fortunately enough, I have seen very little of this in real life and in real time!
Think about this- if one is a practicing, retired or ex- wedding shooter or an avid photography enthusiast, they are more likely to be aware of the photographer while attending a wedding ceremony as a guest, a member of the bridal party or a family member. As photographers, we tend to do this- we observe the photographer's movements, we check out their gear and perhaps we watch for less than graceful and smooth performance. Unless the photographer makes a complete spectacle of themselves or does something totally outrageous, the rest of the folks couldn't care less. The bride and groom are totally wrapped up in each other, the families' and guests' attention SHOULD be on the couple and the bridal party and the clergy-person or the officiant SHOULD be concentrating on their religious and/or fiduciary/legal responsibilities- not supervising the photographer.
Come on folks, the "following", "candid" wedding photgraher (before we called them photojournalists or portraitists) has been a fixture at weddings since the end of WWII. I would like to think that people would be used to this by now! The days of the 4x5 press camera, noisy Grafmatic film holders, flashbulbs and film wrappers left behind, littering the church floor, are long gone. Clattering motor drives, medium format mirror slap- NADA! Even the most discreet, experienced, savvy and nimble shooter is not gonna be INVISIBLE but can usually blend in nicely.
A truly professional wedding photgraher will know how to conduct themselves, dress and easily navigate at a religious or solemn ceremony. Of course, we will plan ahead, follow rules and regulations, secure all required permissions and work around obstacles. We are not there to interrupt or desecrate a religious or civil event- we are there, on behalf of the bride and groom, to provide an artistic and historical record of the religious or binding aspect of their wedding. If there are restrictions as to our proximity to the ceremony area, the use of flash or anything else, the client is advised, well n advance, as to the limitations that may impact on their coverage so that the don't expect what we can not produce. With today's digital technology, fast and variable focal length lenses and incredible post processing possibilities, there is hardly a scenario that can't be captured unless we are entirely barred from the venue!
It would be foolish to just barge into a church or other venue without proper clearance and approval from all parties concerned. Everyone involved needs to be on the same page.
Problem is, there are folks out there who take on wedding assignments who are, in fact, NOT experienced bonafied professionals. Oftentimes they find themselves in a awkward positions, fumble with their gear, over-shoot and move too slowly. Then folks, officiants and amateur photographers paint all wedding "photographers" with the same brush and the stories of the "obtrusive" wedding shooters resurface once again!
Of course, rules, regulations, traditions, norms and what is considered acceptable will vary greatly from one geographic location to another and among different religious and cultural groups. It behooves the real professionals to familiarize themselves with all of theses variations and equip themselves and plan accordingly. For many years, during the film era, I used a Hasselbald system for weddings- noisy as heck! In cavernous churches the noise was somewhat amplified so I kept a Rolleiflex TLR on hand- totally noiseless! At Catholic ceremonies, during the Nuptial Mass, I would wait for the organ to blair and nobody would hear my Hasselblad noise. Perhaps, nowadays, a mirrorless camera with fast lens would be an essential asset.
Pregnant photographer?! Hey, it's 2018! Pregnant ladies are no longer confined to a hospital bed, even in their last trimesters. Many work at their jobs right into the ther 9th month and go back to work shortly after childbirth! No more concealing "maternity suits"- they are out there strutting their stuff! When I started out, in the New York City Metropolitan Area, there were two female wedding photographers, among hundreds. Nowadays the girls are out there, just as many as the guys, and doing fine work! Back in the day, I can't recall any brides with visible tattoos or grooms with long beards and hair buns- unless it had to do with their religions. Years ago, most weddings were conducted in churches, synagogues, city halls. temples and catering establishments with chapel facilities. These days, man! I have worked at weddings in barnyards, parks, aboard a sightseeing boat, at botanical gardens, museums, backyards and living rooms! Oftentimes wedding ceremonies are not all that solomon- they ain't like "funerals" and an occasional flash of light is not gonna offend, blind or shock anyone. Yes- times have changed but hopefully, common sense, kindness, consideration respect and professionalism still prevail.
Now...who wants to talk about dozens of guests darting about with their cellphone and cameras too?! Nah...let's save that rant for next time.
Kindest regards, Ed
Jul 28, 2018 14:19:39 #
Just to prove I still have a sense of humor!
Here' a tip for those photographers who are asked to photograph a family member's or a friend's wedding and for whatever reason, wishes to decline without causing hurt feelings, "burning bridges" or seeming to come off as stingy or mean spirited.
You just explain that you do very traditional photography in the "old school" of methodology using very large format film cameras and flash-powder for low light conditions. All you need is written permission from the officiant and the management at the reception venue to bring in this highly specialized equipment and your crew of assistants.
All photographs will be delivered in living sepia-tone and with an album purchase of $5,000 or more, a complementary "magic-lantern" slide show will be included!
Please see next reply for supporting images!
Here' a tip for those photographers who are asked to photograph a family member's or a friend's wedding and for whatever reason, wishes to decline without causing hurt feelings, "burning bridges" or seeming to come off as stingy or mean spirited.
You just explain that you do very traditional photography in the "old school" of methodology using very large format film cameras and flash-powder for low light conditions. All you need is written permission from the officiant and the management at the reception venue to bring in this highly specialized equipment and your crew of assistants.
All photographs will be delivered in living sepia-tone and with an album purchase of $5,000 or more, a complementary "magic-lantern" slide show will be included!
Please see next reply for supporting images!
Jul 28, 2018 14:25:26 #
Jul 28, 2018 17:56:10 #
E. L. - That's me last Saturday in your last picture (guy on bike). Where did you find me?
Thanks for reading my rant however so as not to identify the photographers, I did not upload the most offending picture and it is a doozie. Point taken from Stardust earlier, I am totally chastised for mentioning the pregnant thing - my REALLY bad. I have to say you were right about everyone being really wrapped up in the bride and groom.
Thanks for reading my rant however so as not to identify the photographers, I did not upload the most offending picture and it is a doozie. Point taken from Stardust earlier, I am totally chastised for mentioning the pregnant thing - my REALLY bad. I have to say you were right about everyone being really wrapped up in the bride and groom.
Jul 30, 2018 10:37:21 #
As usual, Ed makes a valuable point. I often will comment when at a family wedding, about something a photographer is doing. My lovely bride will just roll her eyes, and say, only a photographer pays attention to the photographer, and not to the bride and groom.
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