How much to charge
May 9, 2018 15:24:41 #
I'll try to be encouraging, and informative here, but others have said, there is no set price for creative work. You need to value it.
Do you do Photography as a business? I'm not saying that it has to be your only, or even main source of income, just are you "legal?" I hope so. If you are charging money for your work, then you really should be officially a business. That will mean to get a Tax ID number, any special business licenses required for your location, and at the very least, liability insurance. It sounds overwhelming, but you can actually do that in a couple of hours at the most.
Now, all those things cost money, so you need to figure out a budget, and how much you need to make, that means figure the cost of doing business. How much do you want/expect to make in a year? Write that down.
Now, add the cost of the insurance, licenses, and don't forget that whatever you make, will have taxes taken out, so add that to the cost. Even with this year's tax cuts, I still figure on at least 30% when you figure state and local taxes, along with Misc. Now, to make what you want to keep, add that 30% (or whatever your local tax amount would come out to) Again, it sounds daunting, but it isn't. If this is a "side business" like mine, I don't add money to cover my internet, home office space, or utilities, but I do add about 10% for advertising, and another 20% to cover expenses like assistants, etc. I add my costs for my CC account, as well as other memberships like PPA. If you are dealing with just digital files, then you don't have to figure in cost of goods sold, but your state may charge tax on downloads. Indiana has tax if I supply something on a disk or thumb drive, but not if I offer a download. All states are different, so research that.
Again, I'm not trying to discourage you, it doesn't take that long, AND you will find out how much you need to make per client/job to keep the business where you want it to be. A simple excel spreadsheet can help a lot.
OK, now if you have all your estimated expenses added to what you want to make per year, divide that amount by how many (realistically, not how many you "want" ) clients you should have this year. That will tell you what your average sale should be to get you where you want to be financially.
Now, I've discussed this part before in the Wedding section, and it isn't for everyone. Above is where I started, I actually raise my prices by a little every 6 months automatically. I don't jump it like 30%, but I will up it from 3-5% every 6 months, and that is my "raise"
I would strongly discourage someone from not looking at their expenses, and how much they "need" to make to keep the business profitable. If you want to do that, just grab a dartboard and a blindfold.
What I noticed years ago is that just like with my musical career, when I started out making $50-60 per night (3 hours) I really had to work hard to get gigs, and was lucky to get one per month.. Once I started making $150 to 250 per night, I started playing 3-4 nights a week, and only took off weekends that I wanted to take off because of family stuff. Did I get any better? Honestly, no, I wasn't any better musician at $150 than I was at $50.
The same thing can also go with Photography. If you do a job for $25, you will be known as the $25 photographer, then it gets really hard when YOU decide that you should be making more, everyone will still want that same $25. Before you freak out and say "they wouldn't pay that" or " that wouldn't work in my area" stop looking at what the majority of people in your area charge. Look at what the very top photographers in your area charge. You don't want to be like the "starving artists," you want to be like the "very top"
Anyway once you add up what you need and/or want to make a year to keep your bills paid, OR just to keep you in a supply of toys.
Do you do Photography as a business? I'm not saying that it has to be your only, or even main source of income, just are you "legal?" I hope so. If you are charging money for your work, then you really should be officially a business. That will mean to get a Tax ID number, any special business licenses required for your location, and at the very least, liability insurance. It sounds overwhelming, but you can actually do that in a couple of hours at the most.
Now, all those things cost money, so you need to figure out a budget, and how much you need to make, that means figure the cost of doing business. How much do you want/expect to make in a year? Write that down.
Now, add the cost of the insurance, licenses, and don't forget that whatever you make, will have taxes taken out, so add that to the cost. Even with this year's tax cuts, I still figure on at least 30% when you figure state and local taxes, along with Misc. Now, to make what you want to keep, add that 30% (or whatever your local tax amount would come out to) Again, it sounds daunting, but it isn't. If this is a "side business" like mine, I don't add money to cover my internet, home office space, or utilities, but I do add about 10% for advertising, and another 20% to cover expenses like assistants, etc. I add my costs for my CC account, as well as other memberships like PPA. If you are dealing with just digital files, then you don't have to figure in cost of goods sold, but your state may charge tax on downloads. Indiana has tax if I supply something on a disk or thumb drive, but not if I offer a download. All states are different, so research that.
Again, I'm not trying to discourage you, it doesn't take that long, AND you will find out how much you need to make per client/job to keep the business where you want it to be. A simple excel spreadsheet can help a lot.
OK, now if you have all your estimated expenses added to what you want to make per year, divide that amount by how many (realistically, not how many you "want" ) clients you should have this year. That will tell you what your average sale should be to get you where you want to be financially.
Now, I've discussed this part before in the Wedding section, and it isn't for everyone. Above is where I started, I actually raise my prices by a little every 6 months automatically. I don't jump it like 30%, but I will up it from 3-5% every 6 months, and that is my "raise"
I would strongly discourage someone from not looking at their expenses, and how much they "need" to make to keep the business profitable. If you want to do that, just grab a dartboard and a blindfold.
What I noticed years ago is that just like with my musical career, when I started out making $50-60 per night (3 hours) I really had to work hard to get gigs, and was lucky to get one per month.. Once I started making $150 to 250 per night, I started playing 3-4 nights a week, and only took off weekends that I wanted to take off because of family stuff. Did I get any better? Honestly, no, I wasn't any better musician at $150 than I was at $50.
The same thing can also go with Photography. If you do a job for $25, you will be known as the $25 photographer, then it gets really hard when YOU decide that you should be making more, everyone will still want that same $25. Before you freak out and say "they wouldn't pay that" or " that wouldn't work in my area" stop looking at what the majority of people in your area charge. Look at what the very top photographers in your area charge. You don't want to be like the "starving artists," you want to be like the "very top"
Anyway once you add up what you need and/or want to make a year to keep your bills paid, OR just to keep you in a supply of toys.
May 9, 2018 15:28:33 #
christinortham wrote:
I was just offered a freelance position to take photos at a large hotel chain and banquet center for their marketing department. No idea how much to charge. Anyone have experience in this?
In the late 1980s early 1990s, I was freelancing. I got a day rate of $500 plus expenses ( film, processing, milage, shipping, meals, tolls, etc)
to shoot advertising interiors/products. I also did contract work for the photo dept of a large pharmacutial company at 75.00 an hour, two hour minimun, shooting anything from research animals to grip and grins. Check the ASMP website for rates for the type of work you'll be shooting.
May 9, 2018 17:43:35 #
Howard5252 wrote:
It sounds like the OP has never done this before. While we all have to start somewhere, should this factor in to the amount of money asked for? Just askin'.
No. Because it sends a terrible message - that photography can be had, cheap, if you are willing to compromise on image quality and professionalism. This makes it harder for the rest of us who make a living from photography. Clients are easily persuaded by a cheap job. At least until they get their results. By then it's too late and another pro loses a job to an amateur.
May 9, 2018 18:36:18 #
Gene51 wrote:
No. Because it sends a terrible message - that photography can be had, cheap, if you are willing to compromise on image quality and professionalism. This makes it harder for the rest of us who make a living from photography. Clients are easily persuaded by a cheap job. At least until they get their results. By then it's too late and another pro loses a job to an amateur.
I agree! Problem is, you can't tell people what to do in a free enterprise society and in an industry where there is no licensing or qualification standards in either freelancing or even opening a full fledged photography business without the required skills. You can't tell clients what to do either beyond good, honest educational advice.
I have had long-time clients go off someplace on the cheap and the come back to me at the last minute because someone messed up, missed a crucial deadline and something needs to be produced for a trade show opening, a new restaurant or business launch or some other extremely time-sensitive requirement. So...they come in in a tizzy, pay me crazy rush and overtime charges for us to pull an all-nighter. Where's the economy in that? Here's the punch line- they will sometimes do it again! It's lie th old "oil filter" commercial- "pay me now or PAY me later"!
Thank goodness, most of my clients don't do that- but some folks???!!! They never learn! I try not to blame that amateurs and the hacks because I have no control over them. All I can do is deliver consistently good work on time, cater to my return customers and forget about the rest.
May 10, 2018 00:30:49 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I do a high volume of commercial work for the ...
Great advice!May 10, 2018 00:35:00 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Please allow me to editorialize about my approach to folks doing photography for money...
Great advice!May 10, 2018 03:48:04 #
Without a location a recommendation is meaningless. Local markets vary greatly.
May 10, 2018 03:51:57 #
Gene51 wrote:
No. Because it sends a terrible message - that photography can be had, cheap, if you are willing to compromise on image quality and professionalism. This makes it harder for the rest of us who make a living from photography. Clients are easily persuaded by a cheap job. At least until they get their results. By then it's too late and another pro loses a job to an amateur.
Rinse and repeat. The “almost free” work becomes an expectation for “next time”—and now what the market bears includes devalued work.
May 10, 2018 11:59:32 #
May 10, 2018 11:59:56 #
LoneRangeFinder wrote:
Rinse and repeat. The “almost free” work becomes an expectation for “next time”—and now what the market bears includes devalued work.
May 10, 2018 12:02:16 #
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I agree! Problem is, you can't tell people what t... (show quote)
Somehow the P P of A dropped that ball years ago. Even if they have filed some suits they have not been as active as the music industry.
May 12, 2018 09:19:18 #
Gene51 wrote:
No. Because it sends a terrible message - that photography can be had, cheap, if you are willing to compromise on image quality and professionalism. This makes it harder for the rest of us who make a living from photography. Clients are easily persuaded by a cheap job. At least until they get their results. By then it's too late and another pro loses a job to an amateur.
May 12, 2018 12:29:04 #
Thank you for all of the input, both positive and negative. I think it's interesting that some of you insinuate that I (as an amateur) am taking photography jobs away from professionals. I have been shooting for a number of years, selling mostly to private clients, botanical gardens, doing promos for festivals, etc. This hotel job landed in my lap out of chance after donating photos for a silent auction at said hotel. The hotel owners saw my work and, being unhappy with the "professional" photos they paid a lot of money for, asked me if I would reshoot the photos.
May 12, 2018 16:56:00 #
I am sorry that this thread was less than informative to the OP and that it, as usual, became a kinda adversarial relationship between amateur and professional photographers. When you go out a shoot for money, whether you are an amateur or part-time pro, theses opinions come with the territory.
Certainly, “how much should I charge for...” questions are perfectly legitimate, however, as simple as straightforward as the questions seem , it is virtually impossible to supply a specific or exact answers that would apply across the board. There are so many variables that it would consume all of the bandwidth on this site to list them all from geographic locations, so called going rates, the photographer's business plan or lack thereof let alone the professional status and skill level of the photographer and the economy of the market or industry he or she is serving.
Please believe me me, I have been in the business of photography for a lifetime, I have worked for others, ran my own business and have been fortunate enough to have some formal education, not only in my craft but in many aspects of business management, accounting, merchandising and basic commercial/contract law. Times change, markets fluctuate, there are no uniform pricing standards and many current issues are still perplexing to me.
What exacerbates the issues of answering questions is that the questioners usually do not supply enough information even to make a generalized assessment or tentative solution, things like the exact nature of the job or project at hand, the circumstances of the shoot, or the photographer's level of experience or skill- all of theses things factor in to even the most rudimentary advice.
When I started out as an apprentice in a studio, believe it or not, in the New York City Metropolitan area, there was a photographer's A.F. of L/C.I.O. affiliated labor union. Commercial, portrait and wedding photographers and studio staff were employed by union shops. Each of us held a union card specific to our employment and specializations; “portrait operator, darkroom operator, candid wedding photographer, retoucher, commercial studio operator, etc.”. There were skill level requirement, exams, dues to pay and for example, a non- union wedding photographers could not work in a union hotel, restaurant, or catering establishment or the entire kitchen, service staff and the musician could walk off the job. There were union scales, minimums and union approved contracts. Somehow- long story short- it fell apart, there was all kinds of issues, some gangster-ism - God only knows what exactly happened- I was only 18 yeas old when it ended. Good thing was, there was some semblance of order. You cloud charge as much as you wanted or deserved but there were reasonable minimums. There was a recognizable differentiation between amateurs and pros.
There were many attempts by professional associations to standardize rates, set standards, impose minimums, issue guide lines, organize photographers. The A.S.M.P. has an interesting guide. At one time time the publication “Photo District News” published a “blackball” list of clients who ran from one photographer to another and did not pay their bills and violated copyright laws- nobody ever got blackballed. NOTHING REALLY WORKED.
Up here in Canada, the local professional photographers association in the Provence of Alberta published a pricing guide for new member photographers. They list a number of specialties with a low, medium and high price range based on stats that they had gathered. No minimums, no enforcement, no obligation to comply. So the non-members got pissed off and reported the association to the government- the the “Competition Department” the Canadian version of the U.S. Anti-Trust folks. They accused us of price fixing. So...some “suits and briefcases” showed up in our studios to investigate and nothing ever came of it. You can't win!
Pros usually won't organize, each of us needs to fend for ourselves in a free market free enterprise society. Even if amateurs take on work for money, they are acting as professionals and should know enough to price their work accordingly and earn fair remuneration for their efforts. If the are not doing that, they are not harming full time professionals as much as they are shortchanging themselves.
To the OP- if you are reading this. It seems some of our folks here feel that you are taking work from professionals. They, however, have the right to express their opinions- and so the should. They did not “insinuate” anything- the just came right out and said their piece.
Even if you are a full or part-time pro, there are going to be adversarial opinions or relationships among competitors- it comes with the territory!
Certainly, “how much should I charge for...” questions are perfectly legitimate, however, as simple as straightforward as the questions seem , it is virtually impossible to supply a specific or exact answers that would apply across the board. There are so many variables that it would consume all of the bandwidth on this site to list them all from geographic locations, so called going rates, the photographer's business plan or lack thereof let alone the professional status and skill level of the photographer and the economy of the market or industry he or she is serving.
Please believe me me, I have been in the business of photography for a lifetime, I have worked for others, ran my own business and have been fortunate enough to have some formal education, not only in my craft but in many aspects of business management, accounting, merchandising and basic commercial/contract law. Times change, markets fluctuate, there are no uniform pricing standards and many current issues are still perplexing to me.
What exacerbates the issues of answering questions is that the questioners usually do not supply enough information even to make a generalized assessment or tentative solution, things like the exact nature of the job or project at hand, the circumstances of the shoot, or the photographer's level of experience or skill- all of theses things factor in to even the most rudimentary advice.
When I started out as an apprentice in a studio, believe it or not, in the New York City Metropolitan area, there was a photographer's A.F. of L/C.I.O. affiliated labor union. Commercial, portrait and wedding photographers and studio staff were employed by union shops. Each of us held a union card specific to our employment and specializations; “portrait operator, darkroom operator, candid wedding photographer, retoucher, commercial studio operator, etc.”. There were skill level requirement, exams, dues to pay and for example, a non- union wedding photographers could not work in a union hotel, restaurant, or catering establishment or the entire kitchen, service staff and the musician could walk off the job. There were union scales, minimums and union approved contracts. Somehow- long story short- it fell apart, there was all kinds of issues, some gangster-ism - God only knows what exactly happened- I was only 18 yeas old when it ended. Good thing was, there was some semblance of order. You cloud charge as much as you wanted or deserved but there were reasonable minimums. There was a recognizable differentiation between amateurs and pros.
There were many attempts by professional associations to standardize rates, set standards, impose minimums, issue guide lines, organize photographers. The A.S.M.P. has an interesting guide. At one time time the publication “Photo District News” published a “blackball” list of clients who ran from one photographer to another and did not pay their bills and violated copyright laws- nobody ever got blackballed. NOTHING REALLY WORKED.
Up here in Canada, the local professional photographers association in the Provence of Alberta published a pricing guide for new member photographers. They list a number of specialties with a low, medium and high price range based on stats that they had gathered. No minimums, no enforcement, no obligation to comply. So the non-members got pissed off and reported the association to the government- the the “Competition Department” the Canadian version of the U.S. Anti-Trust folks. They accused us of price fixing. So...some “suits and briefcases” showed up in our studios to investigate and nothing ever came of it. You can't win!
Pros usually won't organize, each of us needs to fend for ourselves in a free market free enterprise society. Even if amateurs take on work for money, they are acting as professionals and should know enough to price their work accordingly and earn fair remuneration for their efforts. If the are not doing that, they are not harming full time professionals as much as they are shortchanging themselves.
To the OP- if you are reading this. It seems some of our folks here feel that you are taking work from professionals. They, however, have the right to express their opinions- and so the should. They did not “insinuate” anything- the just came right out and said their piece.
Even if you are a full or part-time pro, there are going to be adversarial opinions or relationships among competitors- it comes with the territory!
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