LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America

Simple t***hs, and often not followed.

I think the two biggest common mistakes are not pausing breathing when the trigger/shutter is fired and using the hand rather than just the finger to take a shot/fire a shutter.

Pegasus Loc: Texas Gulf Coast

Not sure what you mean by "perform at the maximum," but there are myriad reasons that top competitors have to roll their own rifle ammo.

I'll just talk about my situation; it's very typical of other top competitors but there may be variations.

The match rifle is in fact very much a system and its precision potential is dictated by its weakest component. The major components for precision are: rifle, sighting system, ammunition. When you add in the shooter, you can now talk of accuracy.

A rifle and its components can be very precise yet with the shooter will determine its accuracy. A great shooter with a great rifle system can be very accurate and precise. A great shooter with a run-of-the-mill rifle system can be accurate but not precise. A run-of-the-mill shooter with a great rifle system can be inaccurate but very precise. And you can see what you get with an ordinary shooter and rifle.

So, let us concentrate on the first one: great shooter and great rifle system. You have to match the rifle system to the requirements of the game. In my case, we are talking about punching paper with very small targets at 1000 yards. The first obstacle to success in that endeavor is the distance. You can have the best shooter in the world, with the more precise rifle ever, but if the bullet can't get to 1000 yards, you've got nothing.

Enter ballistics programs in which you input various parameters and they calculate a trajectory. In competition there are rules about the equipment you can use and in my case, the caliber choice is limited to two cartridges: .223 Remington and .308 Winchester. Right away, one can see that neither caliber is suitable for 1000 yards with regular rifles and store bought ammo.

I will deal with .308 Winchester here, but I can do (and have done) the same with .223 Remington.

A wise competitor who knows a thing or three about external ballistics will set up parameters for his load to help guide the process. My first parameter is a minimum of Mach 1.25 at the target in the coldest, driest conditions in which I would ever shoot.

Next up, the bullet se******n. We need to find a bullet that has the BC that will allow it to start off using pressures that are not beyond book max and will reach the target going faster than the velocity we listed above, Mach 1.25. One of the things we can do is to use a longer barrel, which will increase the muzzle velocity of the bullet, using an amount of powder that is still safe.

We cannot modify the dimensions of the case or of the chamber from SAAMI specs. In fact, at big matches, the organizers will check you cases, unfired and fired and your chamber.

There are bulletmakers who produce long range target bullets and they provide the G1 or G7 or both BC values. As a rule the heavier the bullet the higher the BC. On the other hand, the heavier the bullet the slower it starts off. The ballistics programs will help you figure out what is the minimum MV required to achieve at least Mach 1.25 at 1000 yards in the coldest driest conditions. We like BC in bullets and will trade BC for MV for the long range.

Once you compute the required MV, you can then check to see if you can safely achieve that with the help of a long barrel. I'm talking about barrels 30 inches or longer. The powder manufacturers will have information about the internal ballistics using their various powders suitable for that chambering.

By this time, it will be obvious that few store bought ammo will meet these requirements and those that do use the least capable bullet for that task. In other words; you can do much better if you roll your own with a better bullet that is simply not offered in store-bought ammo.

The next problem is tailoring a load to your rifle. This is where you have to do some testing in order to find the accuracy node above your minimum velocity. With any luck, you should find one and perhaps two before you go over max on the powder. You then refine the load by adjusting the seating depth of the bullet, again, something you simply can't do with store bough bullets.

When you have THE load, you then have to replicate thousands of times; enter spendy tools like digital scales, power trimmers, annealers, competition grade dies and so on. And you need to use quality components such as brass, smokeless powder, primers and the bullet we talked about earlier. The brass will need attention to make it uniform, as will the bullets. For the powder you buy in big lots and you refine the load for that lot and then load the powder very precisely. I currently load at +/1 .02 grains or one kernel of powder. For the primers, it's lot size purchases of quality match primers and you inspect each and every one.

Finally you assemble all these components in your loading room, making sure that you ammo concentricity is less than .002; I like .000.

When I load a cartridge of my world class ammo in my rifle, I know that wh**ever occurs on the target, the ammo is at the best it can be. I don't question it.

That's why I load my own.

LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America

Dude,I shoot inrange sponsored tournaments, usually at 100 yards ... shorter with a pistol of course.

I have some reasonably expensive guns because I can afford them and consider myself a pretty decent shot. I make no claims of being a 1,000 yard champion.

My favorite .45 is a WILSON COMBAT and the KIMBER is a close second.

I have an AR carbine and a 20 inch barrel.

The 20 I picked up from a local gunsmith I met at the range and let me try his ... and I asked him to make me one like it.

I imagine custom rounds would be superior but I’ve never taken it up, I buy better grade off the shelf stuff.

DAVE FISHING Loc: Phoenix,Arizona

I don't know if any of you are into pellet guns? That is a whole new game. Lot of trying different pellets to see what your gun likes. Then there is the brake in period. that can be hundreds of shots before it settles down. I'm talking about springers.
The PCP's are a whole another thing. They go up to 50 cal. you can put more money in them than a powder burner. I load shot shells and that has been a learning experience. hulls,wads,primers and powders, just got done loading a 100.

Pegasus Loc: Texas Gulf Coast

Fisking tine.



Excellent. Tell us more.



We're on a photography board, most everyobe here can afford expensive toys. I have yet to meet an American who does not consider hinself a pretty decent shot.


I'm partial to Sigs myself. I have several including a P220 in .45 ACP. I figure if it's good enough for the Marines, the Secret Service and the TX DPS it's good enough for me. Actually I've been a Sig aficionado since the mid 80s.


Details man, give us details. Barrel, chamber, twist, buffer, BCG, stock, spring, trigger, etc.



Details, we want details. Brand, grains. Etc.

Pegasus Loc: Texas Gulf Coast

Never got into shotshell loading. I loaded 100 of my world class match ammo on Sunday for next weekend.

WNYShooter Loc: WNY

I have two race guns which I used competing in USPSA, both 1911's built by Dan Bedell--I'm lucky enough to have him as a neighbor. The limited is in .40, and the open class is in 38 Super. I also had him build me one of his Spitfires, a 6" in .45 for a "fun gun". www.bedellcustomguns.com

I shot both service and match classes in HPR, I have 8 custom built AR15 match uppers in various cals., 3 custom lowers.

Also, 6 Service AR's, 4 of them various custom, but DCM legal, configs in 223. LOL, I love handing one of these to people who are expecting a normal light AR, these are Heavy Barrel and loaded with lead in both the stock and the entire length of the hand guard, they weigh 20# on average.

My other two service AR's are stock and in 5.56.

DAVE FISHING Loc: Phoenix,Arizona

The best shooting rifle I ever had is my 721 Remington 30-06. I bought it with my paper route money 1962. used to shot 1" or less at a 100 yds. Of course i used it for hunting. I like the 130 gr. Serria and the 165 boat tail. did a chronograph on them one time. The 130 were 3250 fps and the 165 were 2850. The last deer I shot was at 500 yds, dropped him in his tracks. That was around 20 years ago. Got into archery until the shoulder and back went out. Now i shoot 200 to 300 Sporting Clay's a week and fish. I don't have to clean or carry any of them.

WNYShooter Loc: WNY

Back in the day, I was using M1A's exclusively for HPR matches, and I never bothered reloading for them as you were lucky if you could reload the brass more than 3 times. Fortunately, I had a great connection for LC M188 Match. He passed away a few years before I switched over to the AR platform, and his wife gave me 5000 rounds for helping her with the estate sale, my shoulder paid dearly, LOL.

I love reloading 223. I bought a few thou of military brass at Camp Perry and I've been running on them ever since. 69 Sierras on N140 for 2 & 300, 80 Sierras on N140 for 600. Nice thing about the slower powder in Mil brass, completely fills the case, and almost no stretch on the brass....might go 5 or 6 reloads before growing .002. All of my Competition AR's are heavy, 16-20LBS, and there is virtually no kick with those loads.

LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America

I also have a SIG 228 and 232. Fine guns.

The barrel on the AR is a 1:9 twist.

As far as rounds I bought a few thousand rounds of WOLF GOLD 55 grain made in Taiwan, not their Russian stuff.

I also like FEDERAL GOLD MATCH a lot, but it’s a bit pricey.

Pegasus Loc: Texas Gulf Coast

Nice pistols.

You AR may be what you call "match-grade" wh**ever that may be, but with that twist rate it's definitely not a match rifle.

Federal Gold Medal Match, aka FGMM, is about as good as you can get in store-bought premium ammo. You might also look at Black Hills Ammo: BHA has excellent reman stuff in blue box and even better stuff in red box. I haven't bought rifle ammo since the early 00s.

LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America

At 1,000 yards with the AR I’m over my head. At 100 yds I can pound the 10 ring and X ring pretty consistent.

You are probably shooting 40 gram rounds and a 1:12 twist.

With the WILSON I can shoot under a 3.5 inch 5 shot group consistently at 25 yards, my best was 1 3/4 on a perfectly still day.

As with all things, being a good shot requires a definition.

I’ve met many who thought they were but weren’t.

I’ll stand by my claim that I am, but compared to others I’m not.

Pegasus Loc: Texas Gulf Coast

It think by now that it's quite apparent that you do not own a match rifle or know anything much about the specifications of a match rifle. It's not a knock on you or anyone else as match rifles are a pretty esoteric piece of gear and it's easy to make a mistake and get something wrong.

WNYShooter talked about his AR that he uses in service rifle. He even mentioned his ammo and as an XTC guy, he has two loads; one for the short range (200-300 yards) and the other for mid-range (600 yards.) He also has to deal with rapid fire CoFs, so his short-range ammo has to be loaded to mag-length (2.260inch COAL). He also mentioned several times that he added weight to his rifles, which is counter-intuitive if you do not appreciate what he's trying to do. My NM AR-15 has a removable 3 pound slug of lead in the stock (since removed) and add another 25 to 3 pounds of lead in the free-float handguard, (also removed.) I don't do SR anymore so my NM AR sits idle most of the time.

Now, an NM AR-15 will usually have a stainless steel 20 inch barrel with a fat profile, minim of .760 but closer to .920 under the handguard and to the front sight (gas tube) and perhaps even to the muzzle. I've been out of SR for over 10 years now and rules are always changing so I'm doing this from memory. The rifling twist will be something like 1:8 or faster (1:7, 1:6.5). The faster twist is required in order to statically stabilize the longer, heavier bullets with higher BC values for the long distances. WNYS's 69gr Sierra is a nice precise bullet with a rather pedestrian BC, but it does a great job at 200-300 yards. Past that and when the wind starts, it suffers a lot. This is why WNYS uses the 80grain Sierra for 600 yards. That bullet has a BC approaching 0.450 and does a great job h*****g in the wind. Because the bullet is longer, it needs a higher spin rate in order to be statically stable hence a faster twist is needed, something faster than the usual 1:9. A 1:8 will do guite well as will a 1:7 and so on.

Bullet weight is measure in grains, not grams so a 40gram bullet would be over 600 grains and be quite long in a .224 caliber probably needing a 1:4 twist and not being able to reach 100 yards due to low MV. Bullets in the 600+grain range are usually .50Cal or larger. I suspect you meant grains and the autocorrect changed it to grams. A 40 gr .224 bullet will stabilize in a 1:14 twist out of a .223 Rem cartridge, but it's not meant for long range as its BC will be very low.

Now, when one discusses a match rifle based on an AR-15 some of the items that will be mentioned are:

Barrel: with brand, finish, twist rate, groove type and number (maybe), chambering and contour. For instance one of my match AR-15 rifles has a sandblasted 26 inch SS Krieger in 4-groove 1:7.7 twist, chambered in their .223 Long Range. with a .920 muzzle diameter in their VarMatch contour.

Trigger: My NM AR-15 has an ArmaLite match 2-stage trigger set to 4.5 pounds. Another match AR-15 has a Geissele 2-stage High-Speed trigger set to under three pounds total.

Handguard: My ARs all have free-float handguards, some from ArmaLite, others from Geissele.

Buffer weight: I have various depending on usage H2, H3 and so on. I always use rifle length gas system.

Grips: Magpul or standard depending on the use. Standard for the NM, of course.

Stock: Standard A2 on the NM rifle, Magpul PRS on others including an AR-10 and other Magpuls on others

Billet vs Forged: I'm a forged kinda guy; 7075 7075 all the way; billet is for sissies.

When you get into a match rifle, something that is used for long range, the discussion is much more complex and depends heavily on the discipline.


And finally, I never doubted your shooting abilities. All I said was that I have yet to meet an American shooter who doesn't think he's a good shooter.

In my decades of competition of various types, I have met a few truly gifted shooters. The kind of man or woman who seemingly can't miss with a rifle. I am sad to admit, that I am not one of them; I have to work hard to get good scores. But sometimes, I enter "the zone" and then it's fantastic, albeit ephemeral and infrequent.

One last thing. Since you shoot at 100 yards or less, you have no appreciation to what the conditions can do to your bullet. It can be a very humbling experience, let me tell you.

KGOldWolf

Funny coincidence; I never heard of things like “match grade” weapons but I’m reading a book in which an ex-ranger, sniper qualified who is now a cop, pulled out “his bolt-action Remington M700 which held four in the well and one in the chamber” but changed his mind and “upgraded to his match-grade M14. It was semiauto, accomdating twenty magazine-fed rounds...”

The things we learn when we sit back and listen. FYI, this is the second book in the “Tim Rackley” series titled “Troubleshooter” by Gregg Hurwitz.

Pegasus Loc: Texas Gulf Coast

Up until 1996, the M14 and its civilian guise the M1A, were the top rifles at Camp Perry and the USMC was the winningest team. The M14 is a select fire battle rifle firing a full length rifle cartridge, the 7.62 NATO, aka the .308 Winchester, in a 20-round detachable box magazine. As a battle rifle, the M14 was not really fit for competition but the USMC and USA armorers knew how to t***sform a rack-grade M14 into what was then known as a match-grade M14. There was a lot of work required to do that and it was rifle by rifle. The problem was that a now match-grade M14 was a fragile rifle. If you picked it up wrong, it was no longer "match grade." Also, after a season or two, the "match grade" M14 reverted back to rack-grade and had to be attended to by specialized armorers to return it to match-grade.

In 1996, the USAMU came to Camp Perry with "match-grade" M16s and proper competition loads that had been gleaned from the civilian competitors and their own development. They kicked some serious booty and snarfed up all the awards, two or 3 deep. The M16 is easily t***sformed into a match rifle, compared to an M14, and it stays a match rifle regardless how you treat it. The USAMU (US Army Marksmanship Unit) had developed their own long range load, which if memory serves, they called the V8. It was a hot-loaded cartridge with an 80gr SMK (Sierra MatchKing) bullet. That went all the way to 1000 yards and they won. IIRC, the first ever clean at 1000yards was done with a match M16 in the early 2000s. Year after year, the USAMU won and soon enough the M14 was relegated to history. By the time of my last trip to Perry in 2005, it was NM AR-15s and NM M16s everywhere.

I have not read anything by Gregg Hurwitz and so I'm not going to criticize anything but the snippet you show is not looking good. I don't know if your familiar with the writer Stephen H****r; he purports to be knowledgeable about long range shooting and his books are about some kind of USMC sniper doing sniper things. I have never been a sniper, have no desire to be a sniper and I don't play one on TV. But I know long range rifle shooting and have competed alongside many USMC and other alphabet soup snipers over the years. Anyway, I read Mr. H****r's latest book called Sniper's Honor or some such. When I finished the book I sent him a long email with details about the various things he had gotten laughingly wrong about long range shooting. Never heard back.

The book was entertaining and Mr. H****r spins a great yarn, but it's just that he gets important stuff totally wrong and he focuses on silly things.

Anyway, when you finish the book, let me know what you think of it.