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Let's Put the Exposure Triangle Aside
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Apr 28, 2016 07:52:16   #
Revet Loc: Fairview Park, Ohio
 
Uuglypher wrote:
Check out the improvement in shadow detail in Bob's images; the improvement by use of EBTR is striking.

The points made above also explain why one does not practice EBTR simply by fiddling with ISO settings; they have no effect on actual exposure.

The point is, for the best image data quality, strive for maximal exposure of the photosites with photons!

Dave Graham


Thank you for that great and easy to understand presentation of why luminance noise is proportionally greater in the shadows. This is the first time I have heard the term EBTR (expose beyond the right). What photos of Bob's are we talking about here and how far to the right??? I thought once highlights were blown, you can't get any data back which is why ETTR always made sense to me.

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Apr 28, 2016 07:55:27   #
abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois
 
Because of the inherent shortcomings of the exposure triangle, I proposed a teaching tool called Pick Any Two. This helps the beginner to understand the interaction among exposure, aperture and ISO. https://www.dropbox.com/s/uq9q2z4a1rxp5r9/Pick%20Any%20Two%20B.pdf?dl=0

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Apr 28, 2016 08:10:41   #
zigipha Loc: north nj
 
I do agree that iso is a bit different from shutter/aperture; iso refers to the sensitivity and shutter/aperture affect how much light comes in.

But when you get to the knobs and dials, its iso, shutter speed and aperture.

With film you set the iso and locked it in, so the user really had only 2 dials the play with (shutter/f stop)

with digital cameras the user has three dials to play with.

but in all cases, the range of the dials has limits based on the type of shot they are going for. its under those constraints that you need to pick the other two

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Apr 28, 2016 08:32:49   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
boberic wrote:
Flash bulb? Where do you find them? I think the last one was made in the 60's


I have a bunch of them that I've been given over the years. Some even have standard screw-in light bulb bases. They are likely old, very old. And I have no idea how I would actually use most of them. Great fire hazards though. :?

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Apr 28, 2016 08:43:18   #
boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander
 
Rongnongno wrote:
Uh? P=UI.. U=RI... RII=P four elements here... not three.


Actually there are 5. The one factor that makes all the other electricty parameters exist. Those things never really exist, they are only concepts. The ONLY thing that counts is ENERGY. OR the time that the circuit is closed. If the circuit ain't on (watt X seconds=energy,Joules) there is no electricity

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Apr 28, 2016 08:56:51   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
rmalarz wrote:
While writing another article which contained reference to photographic exposure, a thought occurred to me, one that simplifies understanding the relationship between f-stop, shutter speed, and ISO.

For the purposes of this article, we are going to need some definitions. These are not made up definitions, they are scientific in nature.

Exposure -
Exposure = Intensity x Time

Intensity is how bright, time is how long.

That is pretty simple. We have the luminance of the scene that passes through the lens and the length of time the shutter is open. That’s it. We can regulate the intensity through the use of an iris, or f-stop. Shutter speed is regulated by the shutter speed settings on the camera. Because of the mathematical nature of exposure, these two quantities work together.

These two settings, f-stop and shutter speed, regulate the light passing through the lens. These are located on one side of the camera. On the other side of the camera, usually the back, we have a photo sensitive material.


Sensitivity -
Sensitivity is the degree of response to light, preferably for this discussion within the visible spectrum. This sensitivity is given a rating which is defined by the International Standards Organization (ISO). The greater the numerical value the more sensitive to light the material is. Again, this is pretty simple.


There are a few other related concepts that are important to keep in mind, but we won’t concern ourselves with those, in detail, at present. Those concepts are shutter speed determining how fast the image is captured. If one is trying to capture moving subjects a faster speed is advised. f-stop affects depth of field. The smaller the f-stop the larger the depth of field. Now that we’ve mentioned those, we can put them aside. We are concerned with the relationship of shutter speed and f-stop (exposure), and ISO (sensitivity).

Now, let’s see how the two subjects of our discussion interact with one another. I know we’ve all been exposed to the Exposure Triangle. So, now, let’s forget that we’ve ever seen it.

Again, we are concerned with two items on one side of the camera, and one item on the other. This is the system with which we are going to do some mental exercises.

We are going to imagine this system is a beam balance scale (see below for the illustration). The balance works such that when the weight on one side is equal to the weight on the other, the beam of the scale is horizontal, as shown below.

One the left side, just for a matter of choice, let’s put two weights. One weight is labelled f-stop, the other shutter speed. On the other side of the scale, we are going to put a weight labelled ISO.

The concept is that we have to keep the scale balanced. If we change the amount of weight labelled f-stop, we’re going to have to change the weight labelled shutter speed to maintain that balance. A smaller amount of f-stop requires a larger amount of shutter speed to maintain equilibrium. Conversely, a smaller amount of shutter speed is going to require a larger amount of f-stop.

Now, if we change the ISO side, we have to change either one or the other, or both f-stop and shutter speed to compensate. That is actually how simple the relationship is. It’s not complicated at all.

The additional matters that one needs to keep in mind are, as mentioned earlier, depth of field, stopping motion, etc. This is why taking a photograph becomes more of a system management exercise than just pointing a camera and clicking a shutter. There are trade offs to be made. You, as the photographer, manage these trade offs. And that is the essence of photographic exposure.
--Bob
While writing another article which contained refe... (show quote)


Bob, that is an interesting spin. And useful if it helps others understand with a different picture in their mind. I find the "term" exposure triangle a bit misleading or useless. Though I am pretty sure your balance(ing) model is not new. In fact I have probably been thinking that all along as I learned Chemistry and Physics before Photography. Balancing methodologies are fairly common to Science. And you are correct including time the way you did even though a couple people were trying to slip around it somehow.

I found this and it seems to make sense to me, units (in the metric system) are m^2/(sec-cd) in other words meter squared per second-candela. This is derived from the exposure equation (N^2/t) = LS/K, where N is your f-stop value (focal length divided by iris diameter, unitless), L is luminance in candela per square meter, S is your film speed (ISO) and K is a unitless constant. If you just solve for S you end up with units of area divided by (time x light).

Might be time to check the old Physics Textbook or the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.

If you just want to give yourself a headache, take a look at this, or try to read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_(photography)

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Apr 28, 2016 09:01:05   #
AZNikon Loc: Mesa, AZ
 
Well done Bob
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Apr 28, 2016 09:26:08   #
kamrakid Loc: Reinbeck, IA
 
I appreciate all of the comments in this thread. As a photo instructor (community college), I need an arsenal of explanations to help each student understand the material. Each of us has a different learning style, and sometimes multiple explanations are needed. The beautiful picture, for me, is when I see the mental flash bulb go off in each kid's head when they finally "get" it -- even if it took four different explanations. Again, thanks to our OP, and to everyone who responded. You're all helping!
Jim
Reinbeck, IA

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Apr 28, 2016 09:29:45   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Revet wrote:
Thank you for that great and easy to understand presentation of why luminance noise is proportionally greater in the shadows. This is the first time I have heard the term EBTR (expose beyond the right). What photos of Bob's are we talking about here and how far to the right??? I thought once highlights were blown, you can't get any data back which is why ETTR always made sense to me.


Revet, You are correct, once highlights are blown, there is nothing there with which to work. One can't put something back in once it's been overexposed (blown). The trick is to expose to the maximum the sensor will capture without going over.

Here's a couple of examples:
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-269878-1.html
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-315416-1.html
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-325610-1.html <-- this one has a bit of an explanation
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-342704-1.html <-- this one uses Uni White Balance to enhance EBTR even more.

--Bob

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Apr 28, 2016 09:32:50   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
boberic wrote:
Actually there are 5. The one factor that makes all the other electricty parameters exist. Those things never really exist, they are only concepts. The ONLY thing that counts is ENERGY. OR the time that the circuit is closed. If the circuit ain't on (watt X seconds=energy,Joules) there is no electricity


There's electricity, there's no current.
--Bob

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Apr 28, 2016 09:36:33   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
lamiaceae wrote:
Bob, that is an interesting spin. And useful if it helps others understand with a different picture in their mind. I find the "term" exposure triangle a bit misleading or useless. Though I am pretty sure your balance(ing) model is not new. In fact I have probably been thinking that all along as I learned Chemistry and Physics before Photography. Balancing methodologies are fairly common to Science. And you are correct including time the way you did even though a couple people were trying to slip around it somehow.

I found this and it seems to make sense to me, units (in the metric system) are m^2/(sec-cd) in other words meter squared per second-candela. This is derived from the exposure equation (N^2/t) = LS/K, where N is your f-stop value (focal length divided by iris diameter, unitless), L is luminance in candela per square meter, S is your film speed (ISO) and K is a unitless constant. If you just solve for S you end up with units of area divided by (time x light).

Might be time to check the old Physics Textbook or the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.

If you just want to give yourself a headache, take a look at this, or try to read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_(photography)
Bob, that is an interesting spin. And useful if i... (show quote)


Mike, I have my old Physics books, plus some from bookstores. I love em. I also have the CRC handbook. Again, great reading. Oh, and the Wikipedia article, another good read.
--Bob

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Apr 28, 2016 09:37:07   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
bobbennett wrote:
Well done Bob
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:



Thanks, Bob. I appreciate you taking time to comment.
--Bob

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Apr 28, 2016 09:39:30   #
JamesCurran Loc: Trenton ,NJ
 
>> International Standards Organization (ISO).

one quibble.... There is no such group called the International Standards Organization.

ISO (pronounced "eye-sew" ) is a name, not an abbreviation. It is *a* international standards organization, but just is not called the International Standards Organization.

The reason for this is largely because the French insist that the abbreviation for something called "International Standards Organization" would be "OIN" (Organisation Internationale de Normalisation)

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Apr 28, 2016 09:50:23   #
wilsondl2 Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
 
abc1234 wrote:
But then again, this was sheet film and they developed by inspection.


Only when ortho film was used. Most used Plus X or Tri X That need complete darkness. Time and temperature. - Dave

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Apr 28, 2016 10:03:01   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
boberic wrote:
Flash bulb? Where do you find them? I thinkn the last one was made in the 60's


I have one Press 25B flashbulb left. It's just for display... You can occasionally find various flashbulbs on eBay.

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