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Sep 29, 2014 09:57:44   #
sirlensalot Loc: Arizona
 
I think the best course you could have taken was to leave. Why? Obviously the B&G along with at least two family members cared more about reception photos with the cousin than you. What I don't understand is how you as the primary photographer, allowed them to get way from your lens long enough to start doing posed shots with another shooter? You have sole posession of the ceremony shots, you have leverage to collect your fee. Suggest using it. In the end it is you who decides if this is worth losing a friend. I think maybe the damage is done, so why not salvage your fee.
I can tell you what I would have no problem doing in your position. I would have assigned my second shooter to interfere as much as possible, including stepping into his shots and firing his flash in his face. At that point, you had nothing to lose but the cousin. Besides any B&G who leaves their guests to go mud bogging in their wedding finery, can't be right in the head anyway. Sorry it happened.

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Sep 29, 2014 10:05:25   #
edazz Loc: Florida via New York
 
sixshooter wrote:
I may just need to vent here... But I had a situation at a wedding yesterday that has Never come up before and I'm not sure how to handle it.

I stupidly agreed to shoot a friends wedding (note to self: go back to that friendship/ business dosen't mix rule) I agreed to a rate Insanely below my usual charge, and didn't get a deposit. (because they're friends, and I apparently am an idiot) <--- None of this is the issue I'm just giving some background.
This was all done with the understanding that they're planning and funding a wedding, just had a baby..etc..etc.. and that they would pay after the envelopes were opened. (and they most certainly didn't cut any corners elsewhere)
I OF COURSE had them sign a contract and am good on my end.

Now these "friends" have a cousin who is a wedding photog. and a good one, who refused to shoot their wedding saying that "they couldn't afford him and that he wanted to enjoy their wedding as a guest"... both valid reasons in my book.
When going over the contract I clearly explained the clause where I was to be the exclusive photographer (a standard in everyones contract) as I clearly explained every nuance and what rights and responsibilities they entail for us both.

The "photographer cousin" who dosen't even bother attending the ceremony, shows up at the reception fully equipped and proceeds to be a total pain in the ass. Shooting the event like he was the person hired to be there..stepping in front of my 2nd shooter to "get the shot" working the room with zero regard for where he was in my images.. most of my dance shots have him in the background in angles that should have been clean.
needless to say I was severly annoyed. I tried to play it cool..gave him a laughing, "you're hired! where should I send your paycheck?" and showed him The great shot I got of him... In the background of my 1st dance shot... perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was pretty sure I had gotten my point across and this guy is no stranger to the industry. Though he is apparently a complete stranger to professional courtesy. I took the groom aside as well and expressed my concerns and he responded with "oh its just what he does for a living, don't be jealous" (which really pissed me off)

At this point I'm just trying to get through the night and this wedding that I'm regretting more and more as the event goes on. When the DJ alerts me that its time for the bouquet toss and asks where my bride and groom are... So I go looking for them and find them outside with "the cousin" and his wife... This guy has my bride and groom knee deep in mud on a hillside outside the hall with all of his lighting, softboxes etc.. set up. taking formal photographs of the couple. (which had already been done hours before)
Straw that broke the camels back. Needless to say I'm seeing RED at this point. I grabbed my second shooter and told him to pack up we were out of there. This was a clear breach of contract, and obviously that clown had no regard for the timeline of the event, or the work the other vendors were putting into keeping things running smoothly.
I was stopped at my van by the Father of the bride (who was a tyrant and had told several guests that he "hated" me.. a man I had met twice and had been nothing but polite and professional with) There were some heated words and he told me I had no right to dictate the actions of his guests. I responded that I did when his guest was a professional in the industry who had been stepping on my toes all night long and that my contract clearly states that I have exclusive rights to photograph the wedding and that guests may take photos within reason but they aren't to interfere with the contracted photography, and that what the cousin did went well beyond the pale of that reason and he was welcome to finish up the reception as he had taken it upon himself to shoot the event.

at this point my mud covered bride and groom have come off the hillside and get in the conversation.. I point out to them how we had gone over this and that I was completely insulted by their actions..to which they responded that they thought that "I was joking" when we went over the contract. (My contracts are clearly printed in black and white??)

In the end I went back in (I really should have just left in hindsight) Shot the rest of the reception and called it a night.
I went home with a raging headache and a very bad taste in my mouth.

Nothing like this has ever happened to me in all my years shooting weddings. I've had plenty of situations with family members who are also photographers politely asking me what my "rules" were for guests shooting.... or asking permission to also shoot my family formal poses after I had finished my shots..I always happily allow it. I am by no means one of those militant wedding photographers who have to "own" the event.

I am doing my best right now to look at this pragmatically and decide how to handle it. I'm not even sure I have a course of action. Not one penny has exchanged hands at this point and I'm really feeling like this friendship is permanently damaged and that I've been shown a complete lack of respect both as a friend and as a professional.

Anyone ever encounter something like this and have any advice on how I should handle it?
I may just need to vent here... But I had a situat... (show quote)






I've shot over 800 weddings in my career and I have been through exactly what you just at experienced twice ( shame on me). I strongly suggest sticking to your contract and try to get full payment before delivery "due to discounts and prepayment to labs etc." as your excuse, if you even need one. I've been to court records n more than on occasion and judges only care about facts and contracts not emotional outbursts and not "he says she says"argue nets. Friends like this you don't need. If they were family it won't ld be worse.

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Sep 29, 2014 10:16:40   #
Ed911 Loc: Eastern NC
 
When you discount, you devalue your services...cheap is unimportant. People respect what they have to pay for. Period.

I taught my children that there is a difference between "friendship" and "friendly acquaintances" posing as friends. You clients are most likely the later.

The idiot cousin might be a good photographer, but he's also a dirt-ball for getting in your way and spoiling your shots...make no bones about it.

And, what's worse, you found yourself in a virtual competition with this guy...you know his shots are going to be good, and he's not being paid. In fact, he may be getting better shots than you, and he's going to give them all to your clients for free, so that they can compare his FREE photos to your FOR FEE photos.

All of this because you discounted your services. If your clients had paid you a couple of grand, or more, then they would have known you were serious about your business and would have accorded you the respect that you deserved.

Since the cousin told them he was too expensive to be afforded by them, and then showed up and provided his expensive, out of their budget, class act, he to them, was more important than you...after all, you could be had for a few hundred dollars...but he, the cousin, was providing something they couldn't afford...all for free for them...what a guy.

Never, discount your services. Nerver. Either it's for free, or it's full price. And, then your know where you stand.

If you were doing this for free, you wouldn't be as pissed as you are. You thought you were doing them a favor and that it would super appreciated, but instead you find yourself disrespected. Bummer. The worst part is, that to top if off, you were "UNDERPAID."

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Sep 29, 2014 10:31:58   #
DebAnn Loc: Toronto
 
There's a lot of good advice in this thread. However, I think I might be inclined to write a business-to-business letter to the photographer who hijacked your job, explaining that you were amazed at his unprofessional conduct. The fact that he was a cousin of the bride and groom could not be used as an excuse for such bad behaviour. I would tell him that you hope he won't repeat such behaviour at any future event for which he wasn't hired. Things like this tend to get talked about and he'll lose business rather than getting recommended for more.

sixshooter wrote:
I may just need to vent here... But I had a situation at a wedding yesterday that has Never come up before and I'm not sure how to handle it.

I stupidly agreed to shoot a friends wedding (note to self: go back to that friendship/ business dosen't mix rule) I agreed to a rate Insanely below my usual charge, and didn't get a deposit. (because they're friends, and I apparently am an idiot) <--- None of this is the issue I'm just giving some background.
This was all done with the understanding that they're planning and funding a wedding, just had a baby..etc..etc.. and that they would pay after the envelopes were opened. (and they most certainly didn't cut any corners elsewhere)
I OF COURSE had them sign a contract and am good on my end.

Now these "friends" have a cousin who is a wedding photog. and a good one, who refused to shoot their wedding saying that "they couldn't afford him and that he wanted to enjoy their wedding as a guest"... both valid reasons in my book.
When going over the contract I clearly explained the clause where I was to be the exclusive photographer (a standard in everyones contract) as I clearly explained every nuance and what rights and responsibilities they entail for us both.

The "photographer cousin" who dosen't even bother attending the ceremony, shows up at the reception fully equipped and proceeds to be a total pain in the ass. Shooting the event like he was the person hired to be there..stepping in front of my 2nd shooter to "get the shot" working the room with zero regard for where he was in my images.. most of my dance shots have him in the background in angles that should have been clean.
needless to say I was severly annoyed. I tried to play it cool..gave him a laughing, "you're hired! where should I send your paycheck?" and showed him The great shot I got of him... In the background of my 1st dance shot... perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was pretty sure I had gotten my point across and this guy is no stranger to the industry. Though he is apparently a complete stranger to professional courtesy. I took the groom aside as well and expressed my concerns and he responded with "oh its just what he does for a living, don't be jealous" (which really pissed me off)

At this point I'm just trying to get through the night and this wedding that I'm regretting more and more as the event goes on. When the DJ alerts me that its time for the bouquet toss and asks where my bride and groom are... So I go looking for them and find them outside with "the cousin" and his wife... This guy has my bride and groom knee deep in mud on a hillside outside the hall with all of his lighting, softboxes etc.. set up. taking formal photographs of the couple. (which had already been done hours before)
Straw that broke the camels back. Needless to say I'm seeing RED at this point. I grabbed my second shooter and told him to pack up we were out of there. This was a clear breach of contract, and obviously that clown had no regard for the timeline of the event, or the work the other vendors were putting into keeping things running smoothly.
I was stopped at my van by the Father of the bride (who was a tyrant and had told several guests that he "hated" me.. a man I had met twice and had been nothing but polite and professional with) There were some heated words and he told me I had no right to dictate the actions of his guests. I responded that I did when his guest was a professional in the industry who had been stepping on my toes all night long and that my contract clearly states that I have exclusive rights to photograph the wedding and that guests may take photos within reason but they aren't to interfere with the contracted photography, and that what the cousin did went well beyond the pale of that reason and he was welcome to finish up the reception as he had taken it upon himself to shoot the event.

at this point my mud covered bride and groom have come off the hillside and get in the conversation.. I point out to them how we had gone over this and that I was completely insulted by their actions..to which they responded that they thought that "I was joking" when we went over the contract. (My contracts are clearly printed in black and white??)

In the end I went back in (I really should have just left in hindsight) Shot the rest of the reception and called it a night.
I went home with a raging headache and a very bad taste in my mouth.

Nothing like this has ever happened to me in all my years shooting weddings. I've had plenty of situations with family members who are also photographers politely asking me what my "rules" were for guests shooting.... or asking permission to also shoot my family formal poses after I had finished my shots..I always happily allow it. I am by no means one of those militant wedding photographers who have to "own" the event.

I am doing my best right now to look at this pragmatically and decide how to handle it. I'm not even sure I have a course of action. Not one penny has exchanged hands at this point and I'm really feeling like this friendship is permanently damaged and that I've been shown a complete lack of respect both as a friend and as a professional.

Anyone ever encounter something like this and have any advice on how I should handle it?
I may just need to vent here... But I had a situat... (show quote)

Reply
Sep 29, 2014 10:45:37   #
Moles Loc: South Carolina
 
I agree with Sherman. Take the high road. Give them the pictures and get your money up front next time.
Sherman A1 wrote:
Just my thoughts as a very amateur photographer, but as someone who worked weddings (church hall and catering ) many years ago and from the kitchen and clean up, I saw a whole lot of very, very strange behavior by people. From my experiences doing weddings as described above, they are simply high tension, weird events. I no longer even attend them as I cannot stand the what I see is a lot of "phoniness". I am happy for folks that choose to marry if that is what they choose to do, but weddings in my opinion are simply for showing off.

If you can afford to do so, produce the photos for them and give them the package as your wedding gift to them. Then walk away from what you believed to be a friendship, because it appears it was not one.

Stay professional on your end, do the job you were hired to do and no more. I am really sorry this happened to you, but as the wise man once said "you pay for your education" and often that is not in a classroom.
Best of Luck!
Just my thoughts as a very amateur photographer, b... (show quote)

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Sep 29, 2014 10:55:42   #
Weddingguy Loc: British Columbia - Canada
 
Bill Houghton wrote:
Keep the photos of your photohog in your way. You will want to show that to judge when you sue for the agreed contract price that there was a breach. That's why we have small claims courts.

Ask MT Shooter why he doesn't do weddings. LOL...


Make sure that the proofs/images showing the "cousin" in the background are the majority of the "keeper" shots to show them. Let them get "pissed" with the intruder!

Also . . . I would watermark all images boldly . . . 'cause you have to know that the jerk is going to show off his PP "skills".
Not on my images he wouldn't!! :mrgreen:

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Sep 29, 2014 10:57:47   #
Pablo8 Loc: Nottingham UK.
 
I have closed my business now, but took many weddings in my 40 plus years. I would suggest you hold on to all you have shot. Make the B&G 'ASK' for the photographs. Let them know you will not release them till after payment is made, and you can wait while they gather the funds to make that payment. You hold the upper hand now, use it to your advantage.

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Sep 29, 2014 10:58:03   #
dglphoto Loc: Lynnwood, WA
 
Its hard to imagine why anyone would think any part of a written contract is a joke, especially when they are asked to sign this document. Which leads me to consider that there were things going on here that were kept hidden from you and they were trying to save face or just get through it. Maybe the cousin changed his mind and the bride and groom didn't know how to say no to him. Or it could have been anything really.
But all of that, even if true, isn't your concern. For the future, my suggestion is to go over the contract in more detail with the couple before they sign it and make sure they understand the non-compete clause. If they aren't open to discussing the contract and just want to skim over it and sign it quickly, then I would at that point back out stating that it isn't in your interest to do the job.
I would also have been more direct with the cousin just so he was clear on your role and position. You don't have any control over him because your contract is with the couple but its in your best interest to state that clearly on the first evidence of breach. You did talk to him but you did it in a joking way casting doubt on your intentions.
And as you already stated, I think you should have left when the cousin showed up (after first attempting to have the couple honor the contract and ask the cousin to cease photographing) and certainly not have given in to the father's irrelevant comments.

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Sep 29, 2014 11:19:02   #
David Kay Loc: Arlington Heights IL
 
DebAnn wrote:
There's a lot of good advice in this thread. However, I think I might be inclined to write a business-to-business letter to the photographer who hijacked your job, explaining that you were amazed at his unprofessional conduct. The fact that he was a cousin of the bride and groom could not be used as an excuse for such bad behaviour. I would tell him that you hope he won't repeat such behaviour at any future event for which he wasn't hired. Things like this tend to get talked about and he'll lose business rather than getting recommended for more.
There's a lot of good advice in this thread. Howev... (show quote)


I would be careful about doing this. Because he showed up with full gear and lights etc, I think that the Bride and Groom either Hired him or got him to come for free. So actually the two photographers might have been taken advantage of by the B&G.

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Sep 29, 2014 11:32:01   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
David Kay wrote:
I would be careful about doing this. Because he showed up with full gear and lights etc, I think that the Bride and Groom either Hired him or got him to come for free. So actually the two photographers might have been taken advantage of by the B&G.

Good possibility. He didn't just decide to show up with all his gear. When one of them gets married again, the cousin can take all the shots.

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Sep 29, 2014 11:44:57   #
David Kay Loc: Arlington Heights IL
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Good possibility. He didn't just decide to show up with all his gear. When one of them gets married again, the cousin can take all the shots.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

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Sep 29, 2014 11:46:19   #
DebAnn Loc: Toronto
 
Good point. Then, of course, the bride and groom would have violated the original contract.
David Kay wrote:
I would be careful about doing this. Because he showed up with full gear and lights etc, I think that the Bride and Groom either Hired him or got him to come for free. So actually the two photographers might have been taken advantage of by the B&G.

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Sep 29, 2014 11:54:02   #
David Kay Loc: Arlington Heights IL
 
DebAnn wrote:
Good point. Then, of course, the bride and groom would have violated the original contract.


Yes they would have but if you remember, the OP stated that the B&G told him that they thought he was kidding. The B&G might have violated the contract, if there was one, with the other photographer too. One just never knows until all facts from all parties are in.

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Sep 29, 2014 12:40:21   #
John_F Loc: Minneapolis, MN
 
What with almost everyone having smartphones with caneras, it would seem to make the "exclusive" part of contracts nearly imposible to control. In my daughters recent wedding there were 100 invited guests and except for one elderly grandmother and about 10 young children everyone had a smartphone. How many pics, some selfies with bride or groom, must have numbered in the high hundreds. Last year I had an acquaintence tell me how his brother set up a bunch of wall/ceiling video cams in every room in addition to there being a pro photographer hired by the bride's parents. I would imagine that would be a contract violation but might the pro never knowing.

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Sep 29, 2014 12:57:12   #
David Kay Loc: Arlington Heights IL
 
John_F wrote:
What with almost everyone having smartphones with caneras, it would seem to make the "exclusive" part of contracts nearly imposible to control. In my daughters recent wedding there were 100 invited guests and except for one elderly grandmother and about 10 young children everyone had a smartphone. How many pics, some selfies with bride or groom, must have numbered in the high hundreds. Last year I had an acquaintence tell me how his brother set up a bunch of wall/ceiling video cams in every room in addition to there being a pro photographer hired by the bride's parents. I would imagine that would be a contract violation but might the pro never knowing.
What with almost everyone having smartphones with ... (show quote)


Yes, I would think that it would be a contact violation. Plus it has been happening for years. The guest jumps in front of the photographer to get their shot of the bride coming down the aisle. I would think that the photog would mention this to the B&G when taking the original contract. This can happen and nothing will stop it and the b&g get a photo bombed pic. The only way I can think of to stop this is to make an announcement before the ceremony and again at the reception that no cameras or photos are allowed.
The B&G pay good money to have professional photos and do not need others ruining them. Every photobomb by a guest taking photos, I would take the photo and have it to show the B&G.

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