Wedding Photographers. Advice
Sep 28, 2014 14:08:09 #
I may just need to vent here... But I had a situation at a wedding yesterday that has Never come up before and I'm not sure how to handle it.
I stupidly agreed to shoot a friends wedding (note to self: go back to that friendship/ business dosen't mix rule) I agreed to a rate Insanely below my usual charge, and didn't get a deposit. (because they're friends, and I apparently am an idiot) <--- None of this is the issue I'm just giving some background.
This was all done with the understanding that they're planning and funding a wedding, just had a baby..etc..etc.. and that they would pay after the envelopes were opened. (and they most certainly didn't cut any corners elsewhere)
I OF COURSE had them sign a contract and am good on my end.
Now these "friends" have a cousin who is a wedding photog. and a good one, who refused to shoot their wedding saying that "they couldn't afford him and that he wanted to enjoy their wedding as a guest"... both valid reasons in my book.
When going over the contract I clearly explained the clause where I was to be the exclusive photographer (a standard in everyones contract) as I clearly explained every nuance and what rights and responsibilities they entail for us both.
The "photographer cousin" who dosen't even bother attending the ceremony, shows up at the reception fully equipped and proceeds to be a total pain in the ass. Shooting the event like he was the person hired to be there..stepping in front of my 2nd shooter to "get the shot" working the room with zero regard for where he was in my images.. most of my dance shots have him in the background in angles that should have been clean.
needless to say I was severly annoyed. I tried to play it cool..gave him a laughing, "you're hired! where should I send your paycheck?" and showed him The great shot I got of him... In the background of my 1st dance shot... perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was pretty sure I had gotten my point across and this guy is no stranger to the industry. Though he is apparently a complete stranger to professional courtesy. I took the groom aside as well and expressed my concerns and he responded with "oh its just what he does for a living, don't be jealous" (which really pissed me off)
At this point I'm just trying to get through the night and this wedding that I'm regretting more and more as the event goes on. When the DJ alerts me that its time for the bouquet toss and asks where my bride and groom are... So I go looking for them and find them outside with "the cousin" and his wife... This guy has my bride and groom knee deep in mud on a hillside outside the hall with all of his lighting, softboxes etc.. set up. taking formal photographs of the couple. (which had already been done hours before)
Straw that broke the camels back. Needless to say I'm seeing RED at this point. I grabbed my second shooter and told him to pack up we were out of there. This was a clear breach of contract, and obviously that clown had no regard for the timeline of the event, or the work the other vendors were putting into keeping things running smoothly.
I was stopped at my van by the Father of the bride (who was a tyrant and had told several guests that he "hated" me.. a man I had met twice and had been nothing but polite and professional with) There were some heated words and he told me I had no right to dictate the actions of his guests. I responded that I did when his guest was a professional in the industry who had been stepping on my toes all night long and that my contract clearly states that I have exclusive rights to photograph the wedding and that guests may take photos within reason but they aren't to interfere with the contracted photography, and that what the cousin did went well beyond the pale of that reason and he was welcome to finish up the reception as he had taken it upon himself to shoot the event.
at this point my mud covered bride and groom have come off the hillside and get in the conversation.. I point out to them how we had gone over this and that I was completely insulted by their actions..to which they responded that they thought that "I was joking" when we went over the contract. (My contracts are clearly printed in black and white??)
In the end I went back in (I really should have just left in hindsight) Shot the rest of the reception and called it a night.
I went home with a raging headache and a very bad taste in my mouth.
Nothing like this has ever happened to me in all my years shooting weddings. I've had plenty of situations with family members who are also photographers politely asking me what my "rules" were for guests shooting.... or asking permission to also shoot my family formal poses after I had finished my shots..I always happily allow it. I am by no means one of those militant wedding photographers who have to "own" the event.
I am doing my best right now to look at this pragmatically and decide how to handle it. I'm not even sure I have a course of action. Not one penny has exchanged hands at this point and I'm really feeling like this friendship is permanently damaged and that I've been shown a complete lack of respect both as a friend and as a professional.
Anyone ever encounter something like this and have any advice on how I should handle it?
I stupidly agreed to shoot a friends wedding (note to self: go back to that friendship/ business dosen't mix rule) I agreed to a rate Insanely below my usual charge, and didn't get a deposit. (because they're friends, and I apparently am an idiot) <--- None of this is the issue I'm just giving some background.
This was all done with the understanding that they're planning and funding a wedding, just had a baby..etc..etc.. and that they would pay after the envelopes were opened. (and they most certainly didn't cut any corners elsewhere)
I OF COURSE had them sign a contract and am good on my end.
Now these "friends" have a cousin who is a wedding photog. and a good one, who refused to shoot their wedding saying that "they couldn't afford him and that he wanted to enjoy their wedding as a guest"... both valid reasons in my book.
When going over the contract I clearly explained the clause where I was to be the exclusive photographer (a standard in everyones contract) as I clearly explained every nuance and what rights and responsibilities they entail for us both.
The "photographer cousin" who dosen't even bother attending the ceremony, shows up at the reception fully equipped and proceeds to be a total pain in the ass. Shooting the event like he was the person hired to be there..stepping in front of my 2nd shooter to "get the shot" working the room with zero regard for where he was in my images.. most of my dance shots have him in the background in angles that should have been clean.
needless to say I was severly annoyed. I tried to play it cool..gave him a laughing, "you're hired! where should I send your paycheck?" and showed him The great shot I got of him... In the background of my 1st dance shot... perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was pretty sure I had gotten my point across and this guy is no stranger to the industry. Though he is apparently a complete stranger to professional courtesy. I took the groom aside as well and expressed my concerns and he responded with "oh its just what he does for a living, don't be jealous" (which really pissed me off)
At this point I'm just trying to get through the night and this wedding that I'm regretting more and more as the event goes on. When the DJ alerts me that its time for the bouquet toss and asks where my bride and groom are... So I go looking for them and find them outside with "the cousin" and his wife... This guy has my bride and groom knee deep in mud on a hillside outside the hall with all of his lighting, softboxes etc.. set up. taking formal photographs of the couple. (which had already been done hours before)
Straw that broke the camels back. Needless to say I'm seeing RED at this point. I grabbed my second shooter and told him to pack up we were out of there. This was a clear breach of contract, and obviously that clown had no regard for the timeline of the event, or the work the other vendors were putting into keeping things running smoothly.
I was stopped at my van by the Father of the bride (who was a tyrant and had told several guests that he "hated" me.. a man I had met twice and had been nothing but polite and professional with) There were some heated words and he told me I had no right to dictate the actions of his guests. I responded that I did when his guest was a professional in the industry who had been stepping on my toes all night long and that my contract clearly states that I have exclusive rights to photograph the wedding and that guests may take photos within reason but they aren't to interfere with the contracted photography, and that what the cousin did went well beyond the pale of that reason and he was welcome to finish up the reception as he had taken it upon himself to shoot the event.
at this point my mud covered bride and groom have come off the hillside and get in the conversation.. I point out to them how we had gone over this and that I was completely insulted by their actions..to which they responded that they thought that "I was joking" when we went over the contract. (My contracts are clearly printed in black and white??)
In the end I went back in (I really should have just left in hindsight) Shot the rest of the reception and called it a night.
I went home with a raging headache and a very bad taste in my mouth.
Nothing like this has ever happened to me in all my years shooting weddings. I've had plenty of situations with family members who are also photographers politely asking me what my "rules" were for guests shooting.... or asking permission to also shoot my family formal poses after I had finished my shots..I always happily allow it. I am by no means one of those militant wedding photographers who have to "own" the event.
I am doing my best right now to look at this pragmatically and decide how to handle it. I'm not even sure I have a course of action. Not one penny has exchanged hands at this point and I'm really feeling like this friendship is permanently damaged and that I've been shown a complete lack of respect both as a friend and as a professional.
Anyone ever encounter something like this and have any advice on how I should handle it?
Sep 28, 2014 14:31:41 #
NEVER do any favor, family OR friend. This goes both ways, do not demand or accept anything from friends. A business transaction is a business transaction, that's it.
The cousin did not accept the assignment. Why did you? There lies the initial mistake. The rest is a natural downhill story.
How should you handle it? Breach of contract? Either refuse any delivery or charge the full amount.
The cousin did not accept the assignment. Why did you? There lies the initial mistake. The rest is a natural downhill story.
How should you handle it? Breach of contract? Either refuse any delivery or charge the full amount.
Sep 28, 2014 14:32:14 #
Keep the photos of your photohog in your way. You will want to show that to judge when you sue for the agreed contract price that there was a breach. That's why we have small claims courts.
Ask MT Shooter why he doesn't do weddings. LOL...
Ask MT Shooter why he doesn't do weddings. LOL...
Sep 28, 2014 14:33:06 #
amehta
Loc: Boston
I think there is one, really simple course of action, especially for your sanity: move on. Do the minimum to deliver the images you agreed to, to maintain integrity on your end, and close the door. We often get stuck trying to maintain friendships which we should let go off. This may be one of them. Good luck!
Sep 28, 2014 14:34:15 #
Rongnongno wrote:
NEVER do any favor, family OR friend. This goes both ways, do not demand or accept anything from friends. A business transaction is a business transaction, that's it.
The cousin did not accept the assignment. Why did you? There lies the initial mistake. The rest is a natural downhill story.
The cousin did not accept the assignment. Why did you? There lies the initial mistake. The rest is a natural downhill story.
The only "favor" I did was deferring payment until after the event and gave them a "friends and family discount" something we all do from time to time.. Otherwise it absolutely was a business transaction and I kept it professional on my end.
Sep 28, 2014 14:44:28 #
amehta wrote:
I think there is one, really simple course of action, especially for your sanity: move on. Do the minimum to deliver the images you agreed to, to maintain integrity on your end, and close the door. We often get stuck trying to maintain friendships which we should let go off. This may be one of them. Good luck!
Amehta.. I think you're probably right. at this point I'm not releasing any images until I've been paid in full. and I will NEVER shoot for "friends" again. The entire scene was ridiculous and I am really just amazed that another photographer would act like such a complete douchebag knowing how hard we all work, especially shooting weddings.
Sep 28, 2014 15:10:48 #
sixshooter wrote:
errThe only "favor" I did was deferring payment until after the event and gave them a "friends and family discount" something we all do from time to time.. Otherwise it absolutely was a business transaction and I kept it professional on my end.
you wrote:
I agreed to a rate Insanely below my usual charge
Sep 28, 2014 15:14:28 #
see "friends and family discount" and yes, thats considerably less than I usually charge.
The issue really wasn't in the pricing, though in hindsight I'm sorry I did that for them. The issue was in the couple and their family members completely disrespecting our contract and being absolute jerks about it repeatedly.
The issue really wasn't in the pricing, though in hindsight I'm sorry I did that for them. The issue was in the couple and their family members completely disrespecting our contract and being absolute jerks about it repeatedly.
Sep 28, 2014 15:18:50 #
sixshooter wrote:
see "friends and family discount" and yes, thats considerably less than I usually charge.
Refer to the initial post. If folks wanted my services I had no family or friends. That way there is no gray area. Once you start that game there is no end to it . Do not expect a 'pay back either'.
Either you run your business as a pro or you don't. Your cost does not change but your bottom line does.
If you consider this a gift, charge nothing. I have done that.
Sep 28, 2014 15:24:13 #
I dont usually agree with rongomo but in this case I do. When you are paid as per contract release photos, not until then. Your contract is clear and precise as you described. I have heard so many horror stories on shooting weddings. My daugrhers wedding was done by a pro with no issues. Stick to your guns, if the friendship dissolves so be it. You dont want friends like that anyhow. I have had "friends" like that and it hurts when they show their true selves.
Sep 28, 2014 15:25:00 #
Rongnongno wrote:
Refer to the initial post. If folks wanted my services I have no family or friend. That way there is no gray area. Once you start that game there is no end to it . Do not expect a 'pay back either'.
Either you run your business as a pro or you don't. Your cost does not change but your bottom line does.
Either you run your business as a pro or you don't. Your cost does not change but your bottom line does.
I'm not expecting a payback, and I do run my business as a pro.
Again it really wasn't about the "cost" of anything... I can well afford to cut a break to my friends and family members.
I was looking for advice on how to handle this sort of extreme situation. I'm not new here, I've been shooting weddings for well over a decade. and I have never had a problem like this. I was just wondering if anyone else had any insight.
Sep 29, 2014 04:12:04 #
sixshooter wrote:
I'm not expecting a payback, and I do run my business as a pro.
Again it really wasn't about the "cost" of anything... I can well afford to cut a break to my friends and family members.
I was looking for advice on how to handle this sort of extreme situation. I'm not new here, I've been shooting weddings for well over a decade. and I have never had a problem like this. I was just wondering if anyone else had any insight.
Again it really wasn't about the "cost" of anything... I can well afford to cut a break to my friends and family members.
I was looking for advice on how to handle this sort of extreme situation. I'm not new here, I've been shooting weddings for well over a decade. and I have never had a problem like this. I was just wondering if anyone else had any insight.
Just my thoughts as a very amateur photographer, but as someone who worked weddings (church hall and catering ) many years ago and from the kitchen and clean up, I saw a whole lot of very, very strange behavior by people. From my experiences doing weddings as described above, they are simply high tension, weird events. I no longer even attend them as I cannot stand the what I see is a lot of "phoniness". I am happy for folks that choose to marry if that is what they choose to do, but weddings in my opinion are simply for showing off.
If you can afford to do so, produce the photos for them and give them the package as your wedding gift to them. Then walk away from what you believed to be a friendship, because it appears it was not one.
Stay professional on your end, do the job you were hired to do and no more. I am really sorry this happened to you, but as the wise man once said "you pay for your education" and often that is not in a classroom.
Best of Luck!
Sep 29, 2014 04:48:12 #
DavidPine
Loc: Fredericksburg, TX
You are running a business and dealing with a contract and high emotions. I deal with contracts and high emotions and I taught myself and my employees to read the contracts upside down. I sit the clients down with the contract facing them and go over paragraph by paragraph. I very carefully explain what each paragraph means. I make a lot of eye contact to make certain I have their full attention. If a discussion is required, I stop and discuss whatever issue is of concern until it is clear. I have them sign each page after all is said and done. I have found that people appreciate the seriousness of the ordeal and it tends to eliminate problems. If an issue arrises after-the-fact, I can say ..."remember when we covered this item." I know wedding photographers who collect 100% prior to their events. If they don't get agreement for full payment prior to the event, they walk.
Sep 29, 2014 04:55:54 #
DavidPine wrote:
You are running a business and dealing with a cont... (show quote)
Right but this was a 'favor' as 'deep discount'... Many issues with that alone.
What the hell are you doing up a 0300? I cannot sleep. What is your excuse? :shock: :XD: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Sep 29, 2014 05:31:23 #
guitarbts
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Bill Houghton wrote:
Keep the photos of your photohog in your way. You will want to show that to judge when you sue for the agreed contract price that there was a breach. That's why we have small claims courts.
Ask MT Shooter why he doesn't do weddings. LOL...
Ask MT Shooter why he doesn't do weddings. LOL...
OK - I'll ask
MT,
Why don't you shoot weddings?
I think I know the answer but we will see - lol!
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