Armadillo Loc: Ventura, CA

The above clipped to save space.

Dave,

Over the years of art and photography I have learned from various professional art instructors that the Rules of Composition were developed to point us in the direction on how to present and view works of art. Most of these rules rely on the perception of how the work affects us emotionally, how it makes us feel about the presentation, and it is entirely subjective to the viewer how that affect applies to each individual.

The rules are general in nature and are intended to provide a guideline to creating images that will be pleasing to the eye of a majority of viewers. There are exceptions to the rules, the rules can be broken, and bent, trashed, and entirely discarded. The work can still be pleasing to most.

Composition is in the eye of the beholder, and the rules are intended to teach us how to achieve some of what the great artists in the past discovered.

From an entirely different media, musical art.
Photographers can ignore all this discussion about composition and dance to a different drum beat; some may be successful, many will not.
The Beatles, from Liverpool, England, sang to a different beat and became world wide famous and popular, yet John Lennon relied on many classical compositions to create some of his most popular compositions. Marching to a different beat.

Michael G

prayingmantis

Uuglypher, The answer to your query is not a quick and easy one however I will try to be concise. First and most important is to understand that asking for proof of the common value judgements used in art, graphic design and interior decorating is a question which is never asked by professionals in those visual arts as the concept of proof of the value system which is common to all visual arts simply does not apply. You are using 'in the box' thinking as are many responding to this thread. While the majority of my schooling (degrees in agriculture, study for PhD in medical physiology, internist, retired from emergency medicine practice) was also based on information which was 'evidence based', I also studied photography in high school and one year of art history in college (year 1305 through French romantics). My high school photography teacher taught us the concept that because we in the western culture read left to right and are 'comfortable' doing so that to confront the viewer with a photograph or a painting that has strong graphic design elements (such as are seen in architecture or city streets) and which demands the viewer 'read' the image from right to left will engender a feeling of uneasiness in the viewer. The high school teacher who taught this to us (1966-67) had his M.F.A.in photography and his teacher in college was Aaron Siskind who was the leading proponent of abstract art in photography in the 1940's through the 1950's. In abstraction the direction of movement whether of the subject or the viewers eye is extremely important just as it is in the compositional analysis of the religious art of the renaissance era. The direction that the forefinger of Jesus on the cross points in many classic pieces is crucial. In the Islamic world both in art and in day to day living the concept of left versus right is very important. The left side is considered evil and the right side good. When a child first starts to write if he uses his left hand he is either chastised or simply corrected by the insistence of his teacher. When one enters a mosque it is always with the right foot first (I am Jewish by the way). In Latin the word for left is sinistral which in English translates to sinister. When a person performs something important favoring the left side in the presence of a muslim it engenders a feeling of uneasiness in that muslim. (Arabic and Hebrew are read right to left.)
What of this concept regarding the validity of artistic value judgements in the absence of any 'proof' that they are objectively provable and therefore exist in concrete terms? At its core this question poses a very old classical philosophical dilemma and that is the following question IF ALL HUMAN BEINGS CEASED TO EXIST AT ONE POINT IN TIME WOULD EXTANT PIECES OF ART SUCH AS THE MONA LISA OR VAN GOGH'S SELF PORTRAIT STILL BE ART? In other words does a piece of art require human observation/human consciousness to be validated as some form of art. There is no such thing as the proof of a consciousness nor can we objectively describe what that consciousness is in another viewer besides ones self. The lines of thought regarding this hypothetical scenario go much deeper than I am qualified to present.

How one organizes their daily life such as their belongings can create a very uneasy feeling if things are thrown into disarray. Interior decorators work with organizational principles which are meant to create a sense of harmony which can not be proven. One of their most basic rules for example is to arrange objects in groups of three and never two or four. Groups of 3 are much more harmonious. There is a new trend in photography in which extremely large prints (say 60x90 inches for example) are divided into vertical panels, i.e. 3 panels each measuring
30x60 inches. Three panels looks great with the right subject matter while two looks horrible and four no better. Even worse is to divide that composition into horizontal panels. Why would horizontal panels be such an egregious violation of in a piece of art? That is because we do not view art from left to right in 3 separate rows, i.e. left to right on the top panel, then left to right on the second from top etc. Dividing a large image into horizontal panels is an impediment, is unnatural and just doesn't work.
Lastly I would suggest you do a little experiment on one of your own images. Using one of your best images that has a lot of impact on you as the viewer I would ask you to flip the image in photoshop (left to right) and then see if you feel differently when you view the image. There is no proof that you feel differently, it is up to you the viewer to try to discern in what way you feel differently. If you try this out it is important to use an image with strong graphic design elements.
To conclude I will describe a real time observation. I am sitting in a coffee house/bookstore in Crested Butte, Colorado (fall colors in the aspens!!!) in a group setting of chairs. There are two groups of two chairs with a coffee table between them. The chairs in each group are side by side and each group opposes one another with the cocktail table between. A group of 3 people just sat down and one in their group took one of the 4 chairs and placed it at the end of coffee table so that now I sit alone in one chair, two other chairs across from me on the other side of the table and one to my right on the end of the table. What a completely different feeling I have with this arrangement. I can't objectify the feeling, it just exists within me!

Armadillo Loc: Ventura, CA

prayingmantis,

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Shutter Bugger

"Concise"... :shock:

I'm guessing the above will be the least brief post in this thread. :lol:

If ever I've thrown down a gauntlet...

Jer Loc: Mesa, Arizona

great and thoughtful discussion.

PhotosBySteve

For me, I find it beneficial at times to turn my art upside down for a different perspective which sometimes helps to direct my attention to areas I could not see in the original perspective.

n3eg Loc: West coast USA

They just use the rule of two-thirds, that's all.

Shutter Bugger

Good call though.

boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander

When the person who invented the phrase "the grass is always on the other side of the fence" was he on the left side of the fence or the right?. Or if he was viewed from the other side of the fence. was the grass greener on the right or left side? The sun rises in the east, if you are facing the other way does it rise in the west? If you only look at the pictures right side, does it matter which side it is facing? People are sometimes asked to study things from top to bottom. Which side should they start from, bottom left of top right.If writing were top to bottom as opposed to bottom to top would they look right or left at all. Traffic lights after all are top to bottom. Do the British look at the "other side of the picture" And the most important consideration of all. You have to look at the picture to know whats in it,

JCam Loc: MD Eastern Shore

I'm with ya Dennis! :thumbup:

I've been shooting pictures for about 60 years, and only recently have joined a club & gotten semi-serious in trying to develop a "photographer's eye"; I'm not sure I could even really describe what that means. I still shoot what I like; if the judges don't like it, that's ok, and I'll can (usually) appreciate their comments, but in the final analysis, the photo only has to please the two judges that really count--my wife and I. :-P

Armadillo Loc: Ventura, CA

When the person who invented the phrase "the grass is always on the other side of the fence" was he on the left side of the fence or the right?

That poor Dude was always on the "wrong" side of the fence.

To address the remainder of your comment, you can answer this better yourself than anyone here on UHH. Perform a simple test; take a reasonably large newspaper article from page 1, or 2; copy the article and print it with characters large enough to read at 18 - 24 inches away. Now hold the printout up to a mirror and read it. Is it comfortable to read? Can you follow the train of thought? Can you visualize the concept contained within the article?

This is why an Ambulance in many cities has the word Ambulance printed on the front grill backwards so we can read it in our rear view mirror.

Michael G

dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida

Was prayingmantis concise; "giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words; brief but comprehensive." I would say so and agree Jer comment "great and thoughtful discussion."

The discussion could have covered several pages or a chapter in a book.

It is too rare that we have a learnered discussion of our serious hobbie or profession. The angst that Woody Alan and I feel when creating is significant. I work hard on a photo before submitting to the howelling wolves that are the judges at the Camera Club... looking for a vunerable spot to sink in teeth.

This iron-cladding of my photos has taught me a lot and forced me to conform. Once I conformed and won 3rd place in the years competition... I was free to be me. Now I create as tho art.. to please me. Strange, I still mostly get award winning rating monthly even tho I do not follow the "norm."

I spent two hours searching for a definitive study saying that in USA drive on the right culture we look left to upper right. Eye string analysis an academic article never got around to saying any thing clear... unless an algorithm is clear!! But string analysis.. a plot of how the eye tracks on a photo would do the trick.

One of the methods I use in examining a photo for weight, balance and color balance is to take off my glasses or to use a filter to make the photo look like bumpy obscure glass. Key is the detail disappears and only the lines shapes and colors are there for us to see. If the photo passes that "squint test" then it is probably a good photo. Adding some dissonance to a photo is a winning trick... field of yellow flowers with one red one isolated and alone.

Notice the hawk on page 2. Looking at it we see the shadow line going from lower left to upper right.

Surly there is a definitive study out there... where is the question.

PS: before you cross the street be sure to look left then start walking to the island and look right before you proceeded to the other side of the street!! Oh gosh like with a photo!

Meganephron Loc: Fort Worth, TX

When taking a photo, I have a focal point. I position thar point where I want it in the composition. I then work out from that point. If it's not working on either side, I try a different perspective. If I can't get the complete image after trying, I get the best I can and it doesn't matter if the weakness is on the right or left

N Tom Loc: Tucson, AZ

The "Mona Lisa" was shown both normally and reversed-- what a difference I thought it makes but it's still an amazing picture either way. I was an art major at Carleton College (Minn.) very many years ago and we were told that Renaissance artists would often look at their artwork in a mirror or upside down to see if they wanted or needed to adjust anything. Da Vinci was left handed but also often wrote in reverse-- or as though seeing through a mirror. He almost, I suppose one could argue, obsessed about sacred geometry being used in his compositions, but wanted to be extremely accurate in depicting biology, botany, lighting, etc. And THEN DESPITE ALL THIS is said to have made the following comment, "The eye sees a thing more clearly in dream than the imagination awake." To which I can only say, WOW!!! Now some folks that I know believe that there are matricies, forms and energy that exist in "higher frequecies" than our normal
eyesight can view and that these things are actually more important to what is "real" than the so called "visible" world. I wonder if that was something da Vinci was referring to. The reason I bring this into the conversation is that I believe that what is "beautiful" and what is "artistic", that this is an immense and deep subject! And I certainly congratulate all for their various inputs. Now-- the rule of thirds! It works for me-- but there is so much more-- i.e. creating while in feeling of joy can add a lot to our
compositions. And just capturing a great serendipitous moment in life-- no matter even if somewhat "poorly! composed". But I DO love great framing, lighting, exposure etc. and the excellent equipment that makes it possible.
And I love the UHH FORUM-- (even though I don't understand how an "Ugly Hedge Hog" got to be its name).

Ah well-- pardon the rambling-- it's a great topic!

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manderson Loc: Northeast Nebraska

Dave, first of all, don't you get a headache from thinking so hard. Do you think the left to right preference maybe has to do with right hand dominance. I don't know if right hand dominance is worldwide or not though. This may be a western thing only.