KW Conch Loc: USA

Are you kidding ? I have seen far more uproar over the Obama enforcement of the spying in the last few days than I ever heard when the Bush Administration initiated it. There has been much more outcry from the left than the right including the ACLU. I have been watching Fox today and have seen much more defense of the program than anywhere else.

Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA

I agree. The left tends to see this kind of surveillance as being really a step into totalitarianism, judging from the reactions to it I have read. The right, if indications are correct, seem to feel that if you are doing nothing wrong, then your growing lack of privacy is OK. Those are the messages I am getting.

KW Conch Loc: USA

That's exactly the indications I get too. However, it will be fun to see how the right wing spins it. :)

Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA

Croce, I don't know where you ever got the idea that I believe my opinions are always correct and infallible. My question had to do with sounding out people and seeing what they thought. It wasn't my purpose to elicit sarcasm from you or anyone else. Maybe you would like to share with us how you feel about this matter instead of trying to take cheap shots at me and undoubtedly others. You're an intelligent guy. I know you are up to this challenge.

Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA

One of the things that concerns me here is that very commonly we have govt officials who are real assholes exceeding their authority and punishing people in ways they don't deserve to be punished. There are no protections or supervisors to protect us from this kind of officious govt official.

Pepper Loc: Planet Earth Country USA

KW I am in no way condoning what the Bush administration and congress did in initiating this BS but to address the issue of less of an uproar when Bush initiated it I believe is because of the recent events of 9/11 they were still pretty fresh in everybody's mind. I agree with your assessment and I think this may be a big part of the reason.

Croce Loc: Earth

There is no point in my wasting a lot of time on this Richard but here is my take. Bush 1 pissed on the 4th amendment when he allowed police to board buses on interstate runs without cause in search of drugs and/or contraband. His boy , ostensibly under the guise of anti terrorism expanded on daddy's wonderful ideas by using wiretaps and other invasive practices without due process or with the benefit of hip pocket warrants. The chief incompetent in charge presently has gone beyond that by laying down the greatest cloak of deceit and contempt for proceedure and rights ever exercised in my experience by acting as though the FBI, CIA, Homeland Securiity, Justice dept and foreign service agencies were his private gestapo and citizen surveillance organizations all in the name of keeping us safe. I have nothing but contempt for any of them. It matters not who started it all, the question is when is someone going to step forward to end it. Please don't anyone be idiot enough to ask me to document. If you really need further proof or are too lazy to do it yourself I am not going to try to open your obviously closed minds.

Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA

Croce, thanks for your summary, which I trust. It is good for us all to have a recap of this without having to go through the trouble of googling all these events and trying to figure out the sequences and who did what when. You see, there is a point in your participation.

Have you any suggestions as to what we all can do about this ? What would YOUR recommended course of action be ? It seems to me that many people on both the left and the right and in between feel negatively about these events. There is room here for seeing something the same way and agreeing.

Remoman Loc: Someplace Remote Near LA

I find the righteous indignation over phone calls and email summaries so interesting, since, in past posts, some of you doing the complaining have had no problem advocating for removal or imprisonment of all Muslims from the US as well as all "Mexicans."
And what about internment such as was done in WW2 to some Japanese and others?
In recent posts, I have seen some of these same names suggesting that.

Are rights important ONLY when they affect you?

Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.

Simple, but not really. The courts should step in and put a stop to all of these shenanigans, of course since the court has been stacked with political idealists instead of even minded jurists, the answer may not be as simple as it should be.

I do wonder how and when the government decided that the new data center being built in Utah was a good idea that the American people would support. How is it that they can make such large decisions that are constitutionally questionable without the discussion or consent of the American people. President Obama has recently made two statements that I find hard to explain. The first was when he said that tyranny in this country is impossible because our government is an representative government lead by elected officials who govern with the consent of the people. He reached back into history to pull out the words of our founders and tried to apply them to today's government. I am not so sure that those words hold the same veracity that they did when they were written. The second statement he made was along the lines that the American people are going to have to trust their government, that if we do not trust our government then we are going to have problems. I think that it is very clear that the American people have never totally trusted our government, our constitution affirms the inherent tyranny in government and seeks to limit its potential. Our history is chalked full of reason to question and be ever vigilant against government over reach and abuse. It is the reason why we used to call the independent press the fourth estate of government. No Mr. President, there is no reason to trust our government and if the truth be told our politicians have allowed the creation of a bureaucratic monster that even if it were the desire of the American people it would take decades to dismantle and tame.

To me it is becoming more and more evident that it is not the politicians who are actually in control of this government but rather the bureaucrats, which brings an entirely different paradigm into focus when one considers the government... It is out of control and I hope that we the people will come to our senses and seek proper reform.

Godthaab

You are assuming your government to be Honest? Have you never heard of George Bush? Haliburton (51 BILLION $$$ unaccounted for) Weapons of Mass Destruction? Wiretapping? Drones?

Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA

I think this is an excellent analysis. I'll comment more about it later, but am on Skype with a student of mine in Africa.

2much2carry Loc: Monterey CA

Read the book: "Republic, Lost" by Lessig He offers solutions to his basic (proven) premise that Congress is corrupt . It will take a long time for this mess/corruption to be fixed. The Supreme Court didn't help matters with the decision that corporate entities have the same right as individual citizens. Pre - Roosevelt days weren't pretty either.

About my earlier comments about the NSA data collection and processing, note that, in general, humans are not listening to voice messages or reading emails - supercomputers are doing this. Humans may see the byproduct of critical correlations. Furthermore, I personally know of several huge corporations where a dedicated staff of people "listen and read" all email and voice communication when a criteria has been me. It's been going on (and still is) for years.

Sorry if I have burst any bubbles.

-Tim

Kombiguy Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA

Read the first amendment. You will find that the freedom of speech is not limited to "natural" persons. It applies to all entities, including corporations. The Supreme Court got that one right.

Richard94611 Loc: Oakland, CA

Sorry, but even though you call a skunk a monkey, it ain't no monkey. Corporations aren't people. The Supreme Court got that one VERY wrong.