Country's Mama Loc: Michigan

Thank you for responding. I have Time Machine set up to a third external hard drive. What I want to do is save to two other externals when working in Photoshop. I know how to save multiple files, but would like to two different EHD's at the same time when I am finished with editing. You have a point about my choice of forums. Maybe the Elements forum might be a better place.

Kuzano

Hi CountryMama.. I used to visit my grandparents in Manistique MI in the fifties when I was young. My dad grew up there, on the upper peninsula.

I re-read your original post and realized I was not sure about your questions. Particularly regarding where you initially save your files??

I added that information to my post, so you may want to look at the revised post. Have been PC consulting about 25 years now and photography as a hobby since the sixties.

Country's Mama Loc: Michigan

[quote=Kuzano]I am very puzzled by one thing you mentioned. It appears you bypass your internal hard drive to save files. Why is that?
1) do you not have a big enough internal hard drive to use for initial/ongoing data storage.
2) How much free space do you have on your internal hard drive. (same basic question as 1)

Keep all my files on my computer slows it down.

Processor 2.7 GHz Intel Core i5
Memory 4 GB 1333 MHz DDR3
I will eventually upgrade the memory, but even then I don't think I will store images here.


Usually my source files are on my computer, but as soon as I am done with the initial edits everything goes on the External Drives.


Furthermore, if you are editing images in the computer, where the access is to an external drive as a "work" disk, that is very inefficient and not good for files. Do you move the files you are editing into the C: drive, or an internal "scratch" work disk, such as an internal D: (whatever, but inside the machine on the mother board interface)

I have no clue if I am doing this. I will either drag the image from the hard drive to iphoto or to PSE11, or usually I go to file>open



That will be the very first question before configuring any third party software, is "will it write to multiple targets, without having a data source on an internal drive?"

Thank you for that bit of information, that might help my search.

Have you talked with Apple Support about Time Machine. It is very flexible, and here is a link to an explanation page.

No I haven't but I do have a question into an Adobe forum. No good responses yet.




Are you registered (free) on an Apple forum, either as part of Apple or third party enterprise?

Yes.





Finally, I think your biggest hurdle is to get around NOT having a data folder in your computer. Otherwise, I think you may want to hire a programmer to write some custom programming for your system.

Yikes! I don't think I need it that bad. Just looking for something a little more convenient.

What you are doing now, saving to a data drive outside the system and then synching to other drives from there may be the least expensive and effortless method.

I could be wrong (I was once), but if Time Machine won't do what you want to do, I'd quit looking and keep doing what you now do, regardless of the degraded performance and risk. Believe me, I have, over the last 25 years, replaced more failed external drives than I have internal drives. The interface and extra circuitry built into external drives is the "weak link"
They all scare me, that is why I have time machine (everything gets loaded onto the hard drive initially), then I save everything on two other EHD before deleting off of the internal drive. I used to burn everything to a CD, but those degrade too and I have lost a lot from years ago. I try to print anything that is really precious. Every year I make a book of the grandkids so I would have something if I lost all the digital.

Kuzano

Well Country's Mama... I am the kind of person who will beat a dead horse until it gets up to walk away from me. Simply tell me when you've had enough and I will cease to try and assist.

I mentioned PC's are my business and in addition I have been teaching Community Ed Classes on Computers for 20+ of those years. Computer tech and performance is one of my classes.

Enough of that.

The idea that "too many data files" on an computer slows it down, is a myth, AS LONG as you keep 15-20% free space on the hard drive. There are certainly other file configurations that do impact performance, but too many DATA files is not one of those configurations.

The part about where you access a working file from is also important.

Opening a file from editing software or clicking on it to open while it is on another drive outside the system is not productive or efficient. One should actually move the file to a "work" location in the C: drive, or to a "scratch" disk on another INTERNAL drive.

Having it on the external drive and opening it from PSE11 simply means that the reads/writes that are continuous as you edit must be done through the interface to the external drive. The read/writes, which are continuous during editing should be done on a file that resides in the C: or other internal drive. Not an external. That means, if your data is stored on an external drive, move it to the computer before opening it to edit. That's a tough one to explain, but for many years Adobe has recommended that files being edited be located on "work space" or "a scratch disk" inside the computer. Read/Writes (editing actions) taking place through the external interface are counter productive to performance and risk corrupting the file being edited to some degree.

Since many people are using laptops, another internal drive is not possible. Some people have their hard drives partitioned, or "split" into two drives.. one C: and one D:.

Personally I would just copy or move a file for edit, from the external storage into a editing folder inside C:, then do my editing, and then move it back to an external drive for storage (which I propose as unnecessary if the files were kept on the hard drive, and it has over 20% free space) This would be after editing the file while it resides on the internal drive.

Your processor is capable, good speed, good dual core, but your
RAM is insufficient, and likely your performance problem.

That's about as much as I have to offer except this validation from the web about MAC hard drive performance.

http://macs.about.com/od/faq1/f/How-Much-Free-Drive-Space-Do-I-Need.htm

Another interesting link might be:

http://www.chriswrites.com/2012/01/17-ways-to-speed-up-mac-os-x-lion/

PLEASE: also note on this last link that the author indicates that performance of the system should not be reduced by programs and data on the hard drive exceeding 90% full. He also indicates than an 8Gb RAM kit should be around $50

Kuzano

Country's Mama Loc: Michigan

[quote=Kuzano]


Opening a file from editing software or clicking on it to open while it is on another drive outside the system is not productive or efficient. One should actually move the file to a "work" location in the C: drive, or to a "scratch" disk on another INTERNAL drive.

So if I bring it back into iphoto or a desktop file that would be better. I have heard of scratch files but have no clue how to access them. Or maybe I have been using them and not realized it.

Thank you for helping me understand this better.

Kuzano

[quote=Country's Mama]

iPhoto is an editing program. As an editing program iPhoto opens the file in RAM, where you can view it and perform edit functions. However, it does not move the file to a storage point inside the computer. It leaves the file on the external drive, forcing the read/writes to funnel information through the external interface, and still using the file while it remains on the external drive. Not efficient, and a bit risky... not seriously so, but it impedes the speed of the edit functions because they have to go through the interface to affect the actual file.

Best, most efficient regarding writes or refreshes of the changes to the file, occurs when the functions all remain within the faster interfaces to the hard drive(s) inside the computer.

Therefore, I want to very clear that the only way you can avoid the slowdown on file change edits is if the program (edit) software and the file being edited are either in the primary hard drive (both) or on an internal second drive in the computer.

You cannot affect that action by opening the file in iPhoto. Opening the file in iPhoto simply retrieves a copy of the file from the external drive, but does not move the file into storage on the computer hard drive. Therefore, iPhoto can make changes on what you see in RAM, but it is constantly in touch with the file on the external drive for the changes as you apply them to the image (the read/writes).

Hmmm.. an example..

You change the brightness on the file you see in RAM with the edit software, and then you click APPLY. The computer must reach out to where the file is stored which is still on the external drive. Remember you opened the file with iPhoto which only put the image file in RAM to be viewed. The file is not totally moved by iPhoto. Only a copy is in RAM. When you click APPLY, iPhoto must reach out the where the image is still stored and write the changes to the file.

No program that simply opens the file, moves the file from it's storage location. It only puts the file in RAM for the work to be done.

You must manually copy/move the actual file across the drives to a location in the hard drive. That's a rather cumbersome explanation of how programs work with any type of file stored off the computer on external devices.

Be very careful that you track file locations and saves as you work on them. If iPhoto uses a catalog tracking system, it may still reach out to the external hard drive, unless you double check and open the correct file in it's new work location. This can be another new navigation to incorporate into your work flow.

If you keep your word processing files on an external program, and you open them in the word process, the changes you make to the document are made in RAM, but when you do periodic saves or a final save, the document changes in RAM must transit that same external interface.

The fastest way to work on any file, with any program is if the data files are on the primary hard drive OR on a second INTERNAL drive in the computer using the direct Mother Board interfaces.

That's why I persist in a recommendation to just keep your data files on your hard drive as long as you do not exceed 80% full and treat a number of other ways in which to keep your computer performance optimal. There are, believe me, both on PC's and MACs so many inefficiencies actually built into those OS's that need maintenance tending, that the last thing I would look at is the amount of applications AND data stored on the hard drive as long as you do not exceed reasonable limits on drive fullness.

Barring that, try to remember to have a location in your computer where files you are working on are actually moved/copied to.

If you do, at a minimum, buy my recommendation that you keep your active edit files on the hard drive, you will not find performance impediments so much while editing files.

At a maximum, if you do decide to keep all your data (within reason of course) on your hard drive, I think you will find your Time Machine software much more easy to configure to accomplish your original post.

I hope this helps.. You haven't said "Quit... you're annoying me now" yet. So feel free to ask for more clarification.

Oh yes, and the terminology "scratch" as Adobe intends it does not refer to files, so much as a "work location", or area of a drive.

I have actually had a couple of clients who have caused external hard drives to fail (back on USB) because they were doing extreme post processing and pushing too much information through the external interface and working the drives too hard. It would seem the limitation of the interface would not fail a drive, but in both cases, when they moved their "scratch" space inside the computer, they solved their failing external drive problems.

Backing up and normal file transfers to synchronize drives externally are normal. However, file editing pushes the limits of the interface, or the interface "throttles" down the performance. It's kind of like have a two inch conduit for all the traffic inside the computer, and necking it down to a 3/4 inch hose when it hits the USB or Firewire port. The transfer rates inside the computer are usually much higher than any external interface.

Wahawk Loc: NE IA

Set up a "Shadow" program to automatically back up certain directories to the external. It will copy any new and/or changed files to the backup drive on a preset schedule.

Country's Mama Loc: Michigan

[quote=Kuzano]



I understand most of what you are saying and I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me, so no I am not ready to have you stop. How do you set up another work location? I guess it is the word location that is throwing me. I guess I think of locations as programs. I have always done everything out of iphoto or the external disks. I have no idea how to do it any different. So is "documents" a location? Or "photos" ?I also tend to stick things on my desk top when I am working with them and know that is not a good practice, but they are handy there. It seems I am going to have to amend my ways.

Kuzano

[quote=Country's Mama]

OK, that's a start... your desktop is a location. somewhere in your computer, there is a folder that is your desktop contents.

If you make a folder on your desktop, OR simply place a file on your Desktop, that is a location. You can work from either of those locations.

The only reason it's not a good idea, as you have been advised, is because if you use the desktop for too many activities, you can again affect the performance. Also getting into a habit of doing too many functions from folders (locations) on the desktop, you are liable to get lax on backups. Most people who use their desktop as a location to keep files are generally overlooking catching those files when they do backups.

So for now, lets just say that transferring a file from the external drive onto the desktop, without the benefit of using a program to do that, but actually moving the file manually, would affect the needed move INTO the computer and doing your edits from the application wherein the application would be opening a file that is actually IN your computer. So the edit change reads and writes would be within the speed of the computer, being totally inside the computer hard drive. Now I am endorsing using the desktop for now, but the real clarification is more involved.

It's pretty obvious that you have a minimal understanding of managing your files around both inside and outside the computer. I'm not insulting you. I am simply talking about an understanding of "file management" that very few people really understand. You are not in a minority. Almost everybody suffers from this lack of understanding file management.

I have a class called File It and Find It. It is the most heavily attended class, and we have three instructors and often teach that class 3 times a term.

The most grievous downside of "graphical user interfaces", ie Windows and Apple/MAC is that they are designed to hide the file management (files and folders) from users. This called the "dumbing down" of the computers to the consumer level. We are not expected to figure this out on our own and the industry fosters these misunderstandings.

The truth is that both operating systems have built within them all the tools we need to set up, organize and manage our files WITHOUT the benefit of applications.

In fact, most applications don't even efficiently manage files and folder locations within the computer, as well as the built in systems. The Adobe system of file management using it's own internal organizer system is crude and fraught with problems for understanding file management. And that organization system is used in Photoshop Elements, CS5 and 6, and LightRoom. It has always been the weak link in those programs.

I don't know about iPhoto, but I suspect the same may be true.

In reality, applications (programs) are generally very poor in setting up a good file management system. You can do much better if you understand the "locations" you are creating with the management system, using your protocols, with the tools built into the Operating System.

The best analogy would be you, setting up a home business, creating an office space, buying some file cabinets, loading the drawers with files, and storing your documents and images, creating your own labeling system, and then using the system you built and understand.

The furtherance of this analogy would be hiring some workers (applications) to come in and drag in their own file cabinets, set up the drawers with files (locations) in them and deposit files into their own locations and use their own language on the label for everything, AND NOT TELL YOU HOW EVERYTHING IS ORGANIZED!

In that analogy, you stand at the door to the office and ask the workers for a file, and they go where they decided to put it in THEIR system, and bring it to the door and hand it to you. You don't go into the office, and you never really know where the files are in your own office.

This is what we deal with in our FIFI classes. Teach people how to place and locate files IN folders using the Operating System tools. You cannot truly understand how this underlying system works from seeing how the programs (applications) do this.

I don't know how much of this I can relate to you because of two impediments... distance and trying to do it over the internet.

When I say locations.. I am not talking about something that the applications do for you. I am talking about how you make those decisions... how and where within the OS itself you place those folders for depositing (saving) files to.

In any event, it's a system that would benefit you immensely if you are persistent and patient enough to pursue. You may want to locate such a class, particularly for your Apple/MAC computer at a school/college community ed in your location, and tell them you are interested in learning how to manage your files and folders directly and not through the direction of the the applications (programs) who take the control away from you.

The basis for beginning to understand this management system to find and gain knowledge of the default locations where files are located in the filing system of the computer. In a PC, this would be the four basic file placement folders in Libraries (Windows 7) like the four library categories... Documents, Pictures, Music and Videos. There should be these basic starting defaults in the Apple system. For instance, in your word processor, when you go to save a file, where is the default location... default meaning the location that automatically comes up when you create the save dialogue.. where does a new file default to, location wise, when you do this.

Time for a reality check... let me know if this is making sense now. If not, I may take a different tack at this point.

Country's Mama Loc: Michigan

This is making wonderful sense. And you are correct I am illiterate in file management. I always thought I was doing a pretty good job, but now I realize that I only really understand the tip of the iceberg. Thank you so much for these explanations. I can see that I have a lot of learning to do in this area. I may have to look into a class.

Kuzano

Country's Mama,

Thanks for the response and nice to know this is opening things up for you a bit.

It is interesting tome to now look at the situation you pose, as (and I want to be up front with you) over the years, I have in my PC consulting made a conscious decision to avoid the Apple market. Apples are just enough different than PC's that it's like trying to use two different digital camera's from different manufacturers. No consistency on how to navigate controls and menu's. Not that one is better than the other, just too much change in how to operate them for me to be efficient in making a career out of consulting on both.

Since Apple/MAC only ever managed to acquire 7-8% of the market, it was clear which one would support me in my biz. I opted for the 90% share of the market.

This is why good techs on Apple, and a wide range of software is harder to find for Apple computer products. Again, no insult intended, but most programmers go where the money is, and the money in in market share.

That aside, our dialogue with each other has been of interest to me. I am now semi retired. Since Apple is now making their computers from the same components as the PC market there is much more compatibility for me on the hardware side.

Since the two operating systems have come much closer together in operation and navigation, largely due to both of their attempts to retain or capture market share, they now also operate similarly.

As a result I may spend a little time this week (I have a class to teach today-this very subject on PC), I may explore how similar and different the file organization system is between MAC and PC.

I do know from our conversation so far that (in my estimation) PC's are a bit easier to manage files/folders) Apple/MAC have done a better job of tucking all these points away, where it is more cumbersome to manage.

For instance, be aware that the original intent of the development in developing a GUI (Graphical User Interface-symbols on the screen-clicking and dragging with the mouse, etc) was to "Hide" the cryptic command language of earlier computers (DOS, Apple DOS, whatever) to make computer usage by average, home and small business, consumer persons more comfortable with personal computing.

The Macintosh was the breakthrough on that goal, and was immediately adopted in the market. Microsoft followed with crude versions of Windows, and struggled with GUI programming.

The one thing about the Macintosh that pertains to this discussion is that Apple was incredibly successful at "HIDING" the cryptic language and management structure of the inner working of the Operating System.. simply incredible. Surely, since Apple People are much more fervid (perhaps rabid) about their allegiance to Apple, many took the time to overcome and learn access to these inner navigation tools.

Again, the 90/10 market share comes into place, when it comes to access to teaching MAC vs PC, it's a lot easier to find schools that have PC courses, than offer MAC course.. $$$$$ income?

In any event that's all background. Again, it's not an us vs them or good vs bad situations. It's just a bit of helpful information on why you will get more answers on a MAC or Apple forum than you will ever get on a photography forum. This or any other. Unless you are talking about specific photo editing software, and even there, I would point you to www.elementsvillage.com or the adobe supported forum for Photoshop Elements. (Not to be confused with either Light Room or Photoshop in CS5/CS6 now-those have their own forums)...

So am I suggesting you leave UHH. No, absolutely not. I am suggesting you register on a MAC forum, possibly two, and a software editing forum for the software you use. You appear to have done that even before this exchange.

Finally, I probably will look around after I get today out of the way, and try to come up a good web site explaining files and folder management on Apple, since it is admittedly not a strong suit for me.

I will probably comment on this post again in a few days. Feel free to PM me if you want.

The more we reveal of that iceberg, the less likely you are to run afoul of it.

OOOH.. OOOH what a colossal or titanic finish!!!!!