kennmurrah

IMHO, a well-designed course of study would emphasize art and composition and general principles of design and color. Maybe a solid technical background like The Manual of Photography, Tenth Edition 10th Edition by Elizabeth Allen to help understand technologies of the future.

Cameras have changed but the basic principles of lighting and composition have not.

fotoman150

They have a BFA in digital photography and a certificate in Digital Image Management.

canon Lee

I own my photography business, and a degree or certificate is meaningless to me as an employer... I prefer someone that has a passion for photography and only knows the basics, & most important has not created any bad habits that are hard to retrain.... I prefer to train my employees to my standards, not some class or college... Its amazing how some schools still teach film and development, & history of photography. It is also amazing how little some graduates of a photography college know on a practical level. Actually what they do know has no practical use in the real world of photography.. I speak as an employer.. I have hired a women that had no understanding of how to take pictures.. It took a few sit downs & she is a valued photographer, always following my procedures and has a gifted eye and attitude with people...

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Why do they have to be accredited by PPA??
I’ll bet that the PPA is not accredited by either NWCCU or WASC and the Art School is!!!
SS

canon Lee

Ken... what in your opinion would be a well-designed course. Seems like an art school might be more beneficial, then learning photography history, 4x5 cameras, film, lab development, without any business info, as how to make a career out of photography, or starting up your own business.. Just how valuable is a certificate to an employer????

traderjohn Loc: New York City

Good point. I'll bet none of those organizations are accredited by BPP.

Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.

Lee, I agree with you in terms of a small business, and I've taken a similar approach in some startup companies that I have worked for, but it doesn't often work in a corporate environment. I've had several arguments with HR departments to change the wording from 'Bachelor's degree required' to 'Bachelor's degree or equivalent experience required'. It has allowed me to hire the staff that I wanted or felt were the best qualified, without falling afoul of corporate policies. Most managers that I know won't do that because it puts themselves at risk for making a bad hire and then being able to justify it. I've worked with several PhD's that were completely useless in the work environment.

My point is that if you do the work and meet the standards then that little piece of paper can make a huge difference. It really does depend a bit on the discipline. My wife started out doing theater lighting design but didn't finish for various reasons, so had the experience but not that irritating little piece of paper. Didn't matter too much in theater, but when she decided she wanted to study something else, and a BA was a prerequisite is got harder. She got through that for similar reasons that you expressed, but it took work. Now she has an MA, so the lack of a BA qualification thing isn't a problem anymore. Then she set up a small business in a completely different field dealing in antique jewelry. Long story short, she now has another degree, a Graduate Gemologist from the GIA, and that little piece of paper makes a huge difference, because she can certify what a stone is, what its quality is, whether it is 'real', man made, or some kind 'fake'. That little piece of paper gives her credentials to trade with, and gives her clients confidence.

The paper doesn't prove that anyone is any good, but not having it can be a huge obstacle.

BlueMorel Loc: Southwest Michigan

OP (Fotoman150) - I'm going to go back to your original post where you said you need to discipline yourself. I you truly have a passion for photography that discipline would already be there. Otherwise you're approaching it as a hobby instead of a life goal. From what I understand the truly successful professional photographers have to put a lot of work into building their clientele or customer base. But first they put in the time to learn from every venue they can - practice, practice, practice, and books, internet, local small classes through camera stores or community colleges, meeting with other photographers, taking photography trips with pros. Don't give your money away for a for-profit "college" where the dollar is more important than imparting skill and knowledge.

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Blue, do you think it would be better for Foto to die with his money?
Or his acct be raided by greedy kids when he’s gone?
And he died wishing he had gone to school?
All because so many here are afraid to spend money? Just wondering?
SS

flashbang

I spent moat of a year at Brooks Institute in Santa Barbara. That was close to 50 years ago. The major reason I went there was named Nora. Sh was my girlfriend here in New York City and went to college out there. We were kids. I figured Brooks was the only way I could get my parents to contribute to me and Nora being together. As it worked out, Brooks training, such that it was, turned out to be the longer lasting relationship. Hard to tell how much it helped my career. I am still a working pro. Looking at the Brooks alumni website, it looks like only a few guys from my 'era' went on to full time careers. I definately learned from my time there. Was it worth it $ wise? Probably not. In my 50+ years paying the rent with a camera, I have yet to have a client ask "Where did you go to photo school?"

clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa

But getting ripped off shouldn’t be part of the goal. You all know how hard it is to make a living in photography. Something to fall back on is probably important for someone with a lack of self motivation.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

I never felt that the reason to pursue a serious photographic education was to achieve a certificate or diploma just for the sake of having or displaying such documentation. The purpose of all my educational activities; earning degrees, masterships, certifications, participating in workshops and seminars on an ongoing basis, was an still is to acquire the needed skills and experience to run a professional business, keep up with the latest technologies and trends and hone my existing skills.

I have two departments in my business; the portraiture and wedding department deals with the general public so a few accolades and some “wallpaper” is a kind of a silent salesman hanging in back of my desk. Very nice- but folks don't write checks and sign contracts based on those decorations. They buy based on quality and service and of course, price points! Some just buy because the like and trust me and don't really know anything about photography! Most of my “retail” business nowadays is based of referrals. Marketing and promotional savvy is a must or you're gonna die!

My mainstay- 65% of my gross revenues is in commercial and industrial photography. Nobody ever asked to see my diplomas. They, the potential clients, want to see my PORTFOLIO. Art directors, agencies and purchasing agents couldn't care if I only had a third grade education or a doctorate- as long as I can deliver the goods and make deadlines. Even if you are a known reliable quantity, the industry is fickle and there is little customer loyalty. It' ain't for the faint of heart!

There is also a good deal of “politics”, promotional savvy, nepotism, and craziness in the mix but diplomas and affiliations have little or nothing to do with this market.

There are no real 9 to 5 jobs in photography anymore. The new guys and gals are going to mostly be self employed as freelancers or business operators. When I started out in the late 50s and early 60s there were dozens of JOBS for photographers,- commercial, portrait, medical, industrial, all listed in the New York Times classified ads. So...this afternoon, I checked them out online. There we a few listings for newborn baby shooters in a hospital maternity department, a few part time positions in a promotional portrait operation in New Jersey and an assistant in a photographic equipment operation that services the fashion industry- an unpaid intern spot touting the advantages of working with top fashion shooters and top models. The requirements are “ must be able to move and lift heavy equipment”! Point is, none of this work requires an advanced education or necessarily brings in a living wage. Oh there was one with a decent salary for a medical photographer in a ophthalmology research department.

Lesson to be learned: You must set realistic goals, be prepared to self start an enterprise and educate yourself accordingly. The “wallpaper” is for you! In business, education only pays off, if indeed it actually PAYS OFF! Sadly enough, there are many accomplished professional photographers with talent and know how that are not financially comfortable. Many have impressive credentials and very unimpressive bank accounts. Be prepared- it's the Boy Scout's marching song!

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Wallpaper

(Download)

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

You wanna get ripped off, try Stanford or Harvard!?!? LoL
SS

BlueMorel Loc: Southwest Michigan

Exactly, and if the Art Institute costs considerably more per year than a state university does, that should be a red flag as to whether the education there is worth it. I just think there are other venues that he could better spend his money at and not end up with a huge student loan debt or depleting his own resources for little gain. I also think a college degree is a wonderful thing to work toward because along the way you hopefully fine tune your thinking and analytical processes, a valuable skill to apply in photography. The non-photography courses give you a background that will enrich your photographic vision as well as make you an interesting person. Art doesn't originate in the pocketbook.