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“Crop factor” is nothing more than a crutch.
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Feb 1, 2018 09:57:48   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
repleo wrote:
The problem could be avoided if we simply referred to lenses by their 'Field of View' or 'Angle of Vision'


Doesn't that change depending on what camera you put the lens on?

I always thought that the actual focal length was the constant.

A constant is usually a good starting point, beyond which we need to use our brains.

Of course I could be wrong. It wouldn't be a first.

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Feb 1, 2018 09:59:02   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
Shutterbug57 wrote:
Nope, not even close. Some used 135 film (35mm format), some 120 film (medium format), some 127 film and there were other formats as well. On 120, an 80mm is “normal”. Not sure what is “normal” on a 127.

- 135 has 2 sizes, 24mmx36mm & 24mmx18mm. Cameras include SLR, range finders & possibly others.
- 120/620 has several sizes that up include 6cmx4.5cm, 6cmx6cm, 6cmx7cm, 6cmx8cm, 6cmx9cm, 6cmx12cm, 6cmx17cm and possibly more. Cameras include SLR, range finders, Twin Lens Reflex (TLR), view camera (6cmx17cm), folding below cameras & possibly others.
- 127 has 4cmx4cm, 4cmx3cm & 4cmx6cm, possibly more. Cameras include SLR, TLR, box & possibly others.
Nope, not even close. Some used 135 film (35mm for... (show quote)


Picky, picky, picky. I was making a point not writing a history. Did I say there were no others?

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Feb 1, 2018 09:59:19   #
BebuLamar
 
At the Nikon website and checking the specs on my Nikon Coolpix 5000 I found that:
It has a 7.1-21.4mm lens with the 35mm equivalent of 28-85mm with no mention of the sensor size. So if they didn't list the 35mm equivalent then I would know what the zoom range is. I much prefer that they list the sensor size.
At DPreview said it has a 2/3" sensor and I had to search to find out how big the 2/3" sensor is as it's not 2/3" in dimension.

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Feb 1, 2018 09:59:45   #
Screamin Scott Loc: Marshfield Wi, Baltimore Md, now Dallas Ga
 
Remember that though the angle of view changes, the perspective does not, thus one may not like the perspective offered by a lens with the equivalent AOV on a smaller sensor. ...
Rich1939 wrote:
Disagree strongly! a 35 on a Nikon DX is the normal lens, if you use DX cameras you should know that and not be confused by what lens is normal on another camera. for instance a 135ish is a normal lens on a 4x5 who that uses a DX or FX cares?.

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Feb 1, 2018 10:01:36   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
Desert Gecko wrote:
Don't confuse "prime" with "primary."
primary lens = lens used most
prime lens = lens with fixed focal length
My walk-around, or primary lens is a zoom but it's not a prime, or fixed focal length lens.

And why not use a zoom as a primary lens? Zooms have improved tremendously over the years. Some zooms nowadays outperform many prime lenses!


You do understand the use of quotation marks don't you?

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Feb 1, 2018 10:02:36   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
mrussell wrote:
For example, the crop factor for a Canon DSLRs with a cropped sensor is 1.5..


1.6 on a Canon...

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Feb 1, 2018 10:14:34   #
bfstuff
 
Why care about the math? If you want to keep it simple, then think of it this way... It's an SLR (digital or not). What you see through the view finder is what you get!

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Feb 1, 2018 10:36:47   #
banjonut Loc: Southern Michigan
 
I have been against the term "crop factor" from the very beginning. Why should everything be based on what proportion of 35mm it is? If that is going to be done for anything smaller, why not for anything bigger, such as medium format, 8x10 etc? I propose that if it is larger than 35mm, it should have a CRAP factor.

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Feb 1, 2018 10:43:39   #
balticvid Loc: Queens now NJ
 
rjaywallace wrote:
I have said before (and oft been shouted down) that each manufacturer should label their lenses with its ‘true effective’ (cropped) size. Thus a Nikon DX 35mm lens could be labeled a 50mm (or 52.5mm) lens and users would know what they are reaching for without having to do a mental math adjustment first. An Oly/Pany 17mm would be labeled a 34mm lens.


I agree 100%.
I have taken tens of thousands of slides.
All are the "old fashioned" way.
If it said 90mm on the lens, that is what it was in 35mm jargon.
I didn't own a zoom lens.

I don't understand what the new lens is now.
Is their an easy way that I can determine what the lens is in 35mm photography?

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Feb 1, 2018 10:45:22   #
Retina Loc: Near Charleston,SC
 
Budgiehawk wrote:
Who knows what will be the standard 10 or 20 years from now? I suspect we will be moving to better but smaller sensors and lenses. There is nothing sacred about the old 35mm film size, and it seems silly to base everything on it. A growing number of people have never used any film camera. I think we should call lenses what they are and the user can see what the do on the camera at hand. "Crop factor" probably made sense at the time, when it took a "full frame" camera to get a picture with the size and image quality of one taken with a 35mm film camera. We get that now with smaller formats. Just my 2 cents' worth.
Who knows what will be the standard 10 or 20 year... (show quote)

Yes, it is interesting how things change. I never heard much about 35mm being sacred, but rather a de facto standard due to its great success based on versatility, speed, and the quality of the films and equipment despite the compromise in IQ compared with studio and other larger formats. My impression is that 35mm had such a vast number of working lenses out there that there was built-in demand for a digital format that made use of these lenses to the fullest. I don't see anything wrong with the term "crop factor" but you are probably correct it will eventually fade along with the 35mm equivalency numbers on non-interchangeable lenses on small format cameras. One thing is certain, 24x36mm today is not a compromise format when it comes to IQ.

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Feb 1, 2018 10:49:55   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
JMCPHD wrote:
I am a psychologist so I claim some expertise in topics such as perception and what people think or mean by using certain words. I am also interested in photography but by no means an expert. That being said I would like to join this discussion and offer some thoughts.

The term normal lens as I understand it comes from the idea that the image produced is roughly equivalent to what a human would see with their own eyes. When the majority of people engaging in photography were likely to use standard film and a SLR in what was usually referred to as 35 mm film then a lens with a focal length of about 50mm would produce an image that was called normal, meaning about what one would see with their eyes.

Lenses with shorter focal lengths produce an image that has a wider field of view than that normal human view and the lenses then are referred to as wide angle. What we typically call telephoto lenses are producing an image that has a narrower field of view but I don't recall ever hearing them referred to as narrow angle lenses.

When digital SLRs were developed the size of the sensor was different from the size of the piece of film typically exposed in an image so the same focal length lens in combination with the different size sensor produces a different angel of view. This difference is described as the crop factor. The same lens would produce a different image on a different camera with a different size sensor or film.

The point is that terms like wide angle, normal, and telephoto really refer to this angle of view not the lens itself. The focal length of a lens is a physical property of the lens. The description of any lens gives an approximate number for the focal length, but I suspect that if we had a physicist do careful measurements we would learn what the rounding error is for any particular lens.

Some people say the lens should be labeled with it's effective focal length. This seems to be more confusing then helpful since it would have to be based on a comparison. Thus they would have to say this 50mm lens is effectively a 75mm lens on a camera with a 1.5 crop factor but if you use it on a camera with a 1.0 crop factor it is effectively a 50mm lens.

Those of us who spent some time with older 35mm film SLRs may need to rethink what normal means on our newer digital cameras. Normal is still an approximation of what a human would see. On the other hand it would be distinctly a narrow angle view for my dog. A dog's normal field of view would look like a wide angle view to humans.
I am a psychologist so I claim some expertise in t... (show quote)


Biologist chiming in here. That was a great and accurate assessment. I might add here that the technical meaning of normal lens (that is species independent) is a normal lens is a lens with a focal length approximately equal to the diagonal of the film or sensor format. So for a 24 mm x 36 mm right triangle (or diagonal of a rectangle) we get a hypotenuse of around 43mm. So traditionally we go slightly longer for your human eye equivalence (note our brains with stereo vision treat horizontal differently than vertical), and so lenses from focal lengths of 40mm to 55mm are considered "normal". This also ties in with picture viewing distance too.

Also it should be noted that the terms Wide Angle, and Telephoto also have technical meanings based on Optics and Physics. Note the precise meanings of Wide Angle, Retrofocus, Telephoto and Long Lens. I'll leave it to our readers to look these up if need be. But I will state here that all Long Lenses are not Telephoto. Example a 15" lens on a 4x5" view camera is very long (for even that format), but is not a telephoto lens if the Bellows Throw at infinity focus is 15", it in fact is less. A true Tele for a large format lens is rare but they are made. And the reverse is true too, Retrofocus Wide Angle lenses are common so the lens to film or sensor plane may be maintained even with the focal length being well less than the lens to focus plane say for your SLR or DSLR. They are "tricks" of lens engineering and optics. As the psychologist realizes our visual perceptions are processed and modified by our brain. Obviously the focal length of the Human Eye is not 50mm! Another reason for speaking in angles of view.

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Feb 1, 2018 10:50:15   #
Paul L_S Loc: Lithia Springs GA USA
 
bfstuff wrote:
Why care about the math? If you want to keep it simple, then think of it this way... It's an SLR (digital or not). What you see through the view finder is what you get!

bfstuff, I agree. You sound like an instructor I have taken classes from.. The instructor said the crop factor is no big deal, look through the viewfinder. What you see is what you get, it does not matter what you would see through a different camera. Learn what your camera/lens combination will see and deal with it. When I look through tech viewfinder I do not care what the field of view is on a camera with a different size sensor.

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Feb 1, 2018 10:51:52   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
bfstuff wrote:
Why care about the math? If you want to keep it simple, then think of it this way... It's an SLR (digital or not). What you see through the view finder is what you get!


Simple and to the point!

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Feb 1, 2018 11:00:22   #
Retina Loc: Near Charleston,SC
 
bfstuff wrote:
Why care about the math? If you want to keep it simple, then think of it this way... It's an SLR (digital or not). What you see through the view finder is what you get!

The math helps if you are removed from the chance to actually try out a M4/3 or other format and you therefore can't look through a viewfinder. It's not a big problem, of course, but sometimes it comes into play when considering changing systems and ordering lenses with no stores around.

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Feb 1, 2018 11:17:04   #
SteveR Loc: Michigan
 
Unfortunately, the entire concept is poorly explained to the new digital photographer. Once grasped, however, it's as if a light goes on and one says, "it's totally obvious to me now."

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