Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.

On an earlier thread there is a long running discussion/debate about FX lenses on DX cameras. I have come to think the whole thing is based on a false premise that started innocently enough. Before there were digital cameras there were many different types of camera, a SLR was the most popular others included range finders, twin lens and etc. They all used the same size “sensor”. The 35mm 24x36 negative. During this period certain lenses became standard depending on the situation. Pretty much the 50mm was considered normal, a 35mm modest wide angle, 85mm and 105mm were portrait lenses.
Then the digital camera was introduced with the first common sensor size being smaller in size than the 24X36. I believe that the camera manufacturers in an attempt to help potential users understand which lens to use came up with a crutch ‘the crop factor’. IE; the 1.5X rule of thumb for Nikon. This confused as many people as it helped. For those who had been using 35mm film it helped to understand when which of the above lenses should be used with the new smaller sensor. If instead they had said something simple like, “the standard lens for these new cameras is the 35mm and a moderate wide angle is a 24mm etc.” there would be less confusion. By coming out with the “crop factor” they provided us old geezers with a crutch to quickly figure out what to use in a given situation, but it didn’t help the beginner one bit.
I think the crutch muddied the waters far more than it helped, particularly when you consider that most entry level DSLR purchases are comprised of a camera and kit (read ‘zoom’) lens. Wide, normal, portrait are meaningless at that point. The beginner should learn with that lens, figure out what setting they use the most and from that when they want to go to prime lenses they’ll know what is standard for them.
In the past we didn’t fool around with ‘factors’ when putting down the 35 and picking up the medium, we knew what lens to use when. Today for most users it doesn’t matter, as the zoom has become most users ‘prime’ lens.
I would like to see us stop using crop factor and instead say things like ‘for the D7200 a 35mm lens is the normal lens.

Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN

The cropped digital sensor size is based on the Advanced Photo System film standard that was introduced in the 1990s. It was developed as a joint effort by Kodak, Agfa, Fuji and Konica. My understanding is that it was a colossal failure however, the standard sizing has remained. This is why Canon refers to their crop sensors as APS-C.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

It's a confusing discussion for sure. When I looked at a digital camera at a trade show, circa 1999, I asked the salesman what the 3x zoom was in millimeters, and he had no idea what I was talking about

Then I bought a Canon Rebel dslr in 2008 and read somewhere that whatever mm I was shooting at should be calculated at 1.5 times that if comparing to film. It was another four years before I stumbled onto UHH and learned that not all dslr's had the same sensor size (hence the 1.5 number didn't apply to all digital cameras).

Even your pared-down "35 mm is the normal" is probably not significant to most hobbyists. Telephoto "effective" reach may be a bigger concern.

rjaywallace Loc: Wisconsin

I have said before (and oft been shouted down) that each manufacturer should label their lenses with its ‘true effective’ (cropped) size. Thus a Nikon DX 35mm lens could be labeled a 50mm (or 52.5mm) lens and users would know what they are reaching for without having to do a mental math adjustment first. An Oly/Pany 17mm would be labeled a 34mm lens.

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Good thoughts, Rich. The early on digital cameras were made with smaller sensors due to the expense of manufacturing those sensors. Additionally, I'm not sure the camera manufacturers were all that certain the things would "catch on". Once they did catch on, the money coming in helped research better methods of manufacture to produce larger, FX, sensors. Now we will have available, soon, a 400mp sensor that is a MX size sensor.

I feel the entire start up has been a handicap and a huge source of confusion for almost anyone dealing with various cameras having various sized sensors. A good deal of the folks think lenses magically change focal length if they are moved from an FX to a DX camera. Add to that the different sensor sizes available and crop factor issues multiply. To this day, I don't understand the manufacturers needing to produce more than two lines of camera, one FX and one DX. That's it. There's no real reason for more than that, just upgrades every so many years.

Look at Nikon, the F, F1, F2, ... F6. Each was a perceived improvement over the previous. Additionally, they had the Nikkormat which served as an amateur camera. There are probably a scant few more, but not to the extent of the models being produced today.
--Bob

Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.

Disagree strongly! a 35 on a Nikon DX is the normal lens, if you use DX cameras you should know that and not be confused by what lens is normal on another camera. for instance a 135ish is a normal lens on a 4x5 who that uses a DX or FX cares?.

RWR Loc: La Mesa, CA

Wouldn’t the world be great if everyone thought the same way about everything!

brucewells Loc: Central Kentucky

Bob, I’d take it one more step and have only one sensor size in a DSLR - 24 x 36 mm. But, that’s just me.

rjaywallace Loc: Wisconsin

Absolutely not, sir! A 35mm lens is a Wide Angle lens period.

Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)

There would be NO UHH!!!!!

OMG!!!!!

mharvey

I totally agree that DX lenses should be labeled at their "apparent" focal length. The problem, of course (as has been stated) that not all manufacturers use the same specs.
It also should be understood that, using DX does NOT give you a "telephoto lens"!!! Camera makers insinuate that it does and we see people constantly referring to getting DX "for greater reach"! They simply don't understand what "crop factor" means.

wingclui44 Loc: CT USA

No, the actual focal length of a 35mm lens is 35mm, that you can not change it, even it's a DX lens, because it's image circle can only cover the sensor area of a crop sensor which is smaller than a full size sensor. Let it be label this way, says "35mm DX (50mm equivalent)" on the lens, then people will more easy understand it.

GoofyNewfie Loc: Kansas City

This is "dumbing down" the system.
What happens if one wants to use an APS-C (DX) lens on a micro-4/3rds camera?
This is one reason why you are often shouted down.
And a 35mm lens can be a wide, normal or telephoto, depending on what sensor size it's being used on.

Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.

Disagree, call the lens what it is and the user will learn when to use it. It seems this train of thought assumes everyone entering into digital photography today has a history with 35mm SLRs. More than likely they have a history with cell phone cameras. why in the world should they have to learn that a 35 acts like a 50 and at the same time what ever the numbers would be for a cell phone?

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Bruce, I agree with you completely. As I stated, the unfortunate consequences of cost of manufacture and lack of crystal ball gazing led to making a digital camera as cost effective as possible at the time. My first camera shot jpg or tif, and the image was 640 x 480 x 72dpi. If I chose to shoot tif, I'd get about 12 images per memory module. How times have changed.
--Bob