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“Crop factor” is nothing more than a crutch.
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Jan 31, 2018 11:40:42   #
bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana
 
Rich1939 wrote:
On an earlier thread there is a long running discussion/debate about FX lenses on DX cameras. I have come to think the whole thing is based on a false premise that started innocently enough. Before there were digital cameras there were many different types of camera, a SLR was the most popular others included range finders, twin lens and etc. They all used the same size “sensor”. The 35mm 24x36 negative. During this period certain lenses became standard depending on the situation. Pretty much the 50mm was considered normal, a 35mm modest wide angle, 85mm and 105mm were portrait lenses.
Then the digital camera was introduced with the first common sensor size being smaller in size than the 24X36. I believe that the camera manufacturers in an attempt to help potential users understand which lens to use came up with a crutch ‘the crop factor’. IE; the 1.5X rule of thumb for Nikon. This confused as many people as it helped. For those who had been using 35mm film it helped to understand when which of the above lenses should be used with the new smaller sensor. If instead they had said something simple like, “the standard lens for these new cameras is the 35mm and a moderate wide angle is a 24mm etc.” there would be less confusion. By coming out with the “crop factor” they provided us old geezers with a crutch to quickly figure out what to use in a given situation, but it didn’t help the beginner one bit.
I think the crutch muddied the waters far more than it helped, particularly when you consider that most entry level DSLR purchases are comprised of a camera and kit (read ‘zoom’) lens. Wide, normal, portrait are meaningless at that point. The beginner should learn with that lens, figure out what setting they use the most and from that when they want to go to prime lenses they’ll know what is standard for them.
In the past we didn’t fool around with ‘factors’ when putting down the 35 and picking up the medium, we knew what lens to use when. Today for most users it doesn’t matter, as the zoom has become most users ‘prime’ lens.
I would like to see us stop using crop factor and instead say things like ‘for the D7200 a 35mm lens is the normal lens.
On an earlier thread there is a long running discu... (show quote)


This topic tends to end up making tempers flair for some reason.

My answer is who cares? If you are used to the APS-C, then you don't really wander about thinking in terms of "crop sensor"
I started out with Medium Format film, so actually, 35mm is a crop of that, so does that mean "Full Frame" is a crutch?

I was a fairly early adopter of digital, and we didn't lament having a "crop sensor" I'm so used to seeing what I see through my lenses (mostly an 18-55 2.8, and 50-150 2.8 (sigma...favorite lens) that I don't have to do math in my head. I needed a new body this past year, and instead of going with a used/refurbished D-810, I went with the D-500. The focus in extremely low light is amazing (same focus system as the D-5.

I've yet to ever have a client ask me what size sensor I use. I just sold a 20x80 panorama to a medical center last week, and not once, did anyone get worked up about the model of camera, and if it was a full frame.

It's a tool. Learn your tool, know it inside and out, and push it to its limits.

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Jan 31, 2018 11:45:56   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
bkyser wrote:
This topic tends to end up making tempers flair for some reason.

My answer is who cares? If you are used to the APS-C, then you don't really wander about thinking in terms of "crop sensor"
I started out with Medium Format film, so actually, 35mm is a crop of that, so does that mean "Full Frame" is a crutch?

I was a fairly early adopter of digital, and we didn't lament having a "crop sensor" I'm so used to seeing what I see through my lenses (mostly an 18-55 2.8, and 50-150 2.8 (sigma...favorite lens) that I don't have to do math in my head. I needed a new body this past year, and instead of going with a used/refurbished D-810, I went with the D-500. The focus in extremely low light is amazing (same focus system as the D-5.

I've yet to ever have a client ask me what size sensor I use. I just sold a 20x80 panorama to a medical center last week, and not once, did anyone get worked up about the model of camera, and if it was a full frame.

It's a tool. Learn your tool, know it inside and out, and push it to its limits.
This topic tends to end up making tempers flair fo... (show quote)

I agree with your positions. But to answer the question, "who cares?" I do, I'm concerned with beginners and how silly things like "the crop factor is 1.5" can confuse them and screw with their progress.

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Jan 31, 2018 11:55:44   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
mharvey wrote:
I totally agree that DX lenses should be labeled at their "apparent" focal length. The problem, of course (as has been stated) that not all manufacturers use the same specs.
It also should be understood that, using DX does NOT give you a "telephoto lens"!!! Camera makers insinuate that it does and we see people constantly referring to getting DX "for greater reach"! They simply don't understand what "crop factor" means.


I too disagree. All that matters is that the person using a DX (or any other format camera) knows what to expect when they put a particular lens on their camera. The lenses I bought for my 35mm camera never had the medium format equivalent stamped on them.

While there are people who are confused by the equivalent nonsense, there are also people confused with large numbers representing small apertures. If they choose not to learn by whatever means necessary they will go through life confused.

I've heard it said that ignorance is bliss. Maybe that's why folks shooting with cell phones look so happy. They don't need to know an aperture from a hole in the wall.

--

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Jan 31, 2018 11:58:17   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
Bill_de wrote:
I too disagree. All that matters is that the person using a DX (or any other format camera) knows what to expect when they put a particular lens on their camera. The lenses I bought for my 35mm camera never had the medium format equivalent stamped on them.

While there are people who are confused by the equivalent nonsense, there are also people confused with large numbers representing small apertures. If they choose not to learn by whatever means necessary they will go through life confused.

I've heard it said that ignorance is bliss. Maybe that's why folks shooting with cell phones look so happy. They don't need to know an aperture from a hole in the wall.

--
I too disagree. All that matters is that the perso... (show quote)


How big is the wall? How big is the hole?

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Jan 31, 2018 12:22:39   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
rjaywallace wrote:
Absolutely not, sir! A 35mm lens is a Wide Angle lens period.

This is where the confusion starts. Characteristics of a lens depend partly on the sensor that interprets it. A 35mm lens is a 35mm lens. Period.

I have a Takuma M42-mount 35mm lens. Mount it on my old Pentax Super Program 35mm camera and it acts mildly wide-angle. Mount it on my Pentax K-30 APS-C camera and it acts sorta 'normal'. Mount it on my Pentax Q-7, and it acts telephoto, giving me the same kind of view a 162mm lens would give on the Super Program. Of and by itself, the lens isn't anything.

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Jan 31, 2018 12:23:20   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
rjaywallace wrote:
I have said before (and oft been shouted down) that each manufacturer should label their lenses with its ‘true effective’ (cropped) size. Thus a Nikon DX 35mm lens could be labeled a 50mm (or 52.5mm) lens and users would know what they are reaching for without having to do a mental math adjustment first. An Oly/Pany 17mm would be labeled a 34mm lens.

I don't agree, a 50mm lens is a 50mm lens and will always be a 50mm lens , just leave it at that and not make a big fuss out of nothing!

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Jan 31, 2018 12:31:31   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
rjaywallace wrote:
Absolutely not, sir! A 35mm lens is a Wide Angle lens period.

What do you base that on? Consider this. My bride (of many years) has a small point and shoot with a zoom lens that goes from 4.5mm to 54mm. at 35mm it would be in the tele range.

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Jan 31, 2018 12:33:25   #
BebuLamar
 
rjaywallace wrote:
Absolutely not, sir! A 35mm lens is a Wide Angle lens period.


A M4/3 lens of 35mm is not a wide angle (There is not 35mm M4/3 lens but even the 25mm isn't wide angle) because it simply can not provide the wide angle view even if you mount it on a full frame camera.
The Nikon 35mm f/1.8 DX isn't a wide angle because even if you mount it on an FX camera you do not get the wide angle view.

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Jan 31, 2018 12:50:35   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Ralph, I normally agree with you, but this is slightly in error. A normal lens is conventionally considered one that has a focal length of approximately the diagonal of the sensor/film being used. A lens shorter than that length is considered a wide angle lens, for that sensor. A lens longer than that length is considered telephoto, again for that sensor.

Thus, a normal lens for a 35mm is 43mm. It settled on 50mm at some time. For an 8x10 a normal lens is 325mm, usually a 300mm is used. So, the diagonal of the sensor will determine the classification of wide angle, normal, or telephoto.
--Bob
rjaywallace wrote:
Absolutely not, sir! A 35mm lens is a Wide Angle lens period.

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Jan 31, 2018 12:59:59   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
The whole topic shows a widespread lack of understanding of optics and photographic history.

A 50mm lens is a 50mm lens. The only thing that makes it "normal" is history. The focal length of the lens is not important in itself. It's the Field Of View (FOV) that is important here. The FOV depends on both the focal length and the sensor size. You can't characterize the FOV purely by the lens's focal length. It's the tendency to boil things down to minimal information that is what confuses people. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" (Attributed to A. Einstein).

So why is a 50mm lens sometimes called "normal"?

There are a number of explanations, some of them are probably guesses. Most of them are subjective. When 35mm cameras became widely used the common lens that was supplied was about 50mm focal length. So photographers got used to that field of view (defined by the 50mm focal length and the 24mm x 36mm sensor [film]). Since people were used to it, it became "normal".

A given lens will only be "normal" for a given system. "Normal" is not inherent in the lens.

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Jan 31, 2018 13:07:41   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
The whole topic shows a widespread lack of understanding of optics and photographic history.

A 50mm lens is a 50mm lens. The only thing that makes it "normal" is history. The focal length of the lens is not important in itself. It's the Field Of View (FOV) that is important here. The FOV depends on both the focal length and the sensor size. You can't characterize the FOV purely by the lens's focal length. It's the tendency to boil things down to minimal information that is what confuses people. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" (Attributed to A. Einstein).

So why is a 50mm lens sometimes called "normal"?

There are a number of explanations, some of them are probably guesses. Most of them are subjective. When 35mm cameras became widely used the common lens that was supplied was about 50mm focal length. So photographers got used to that field of view (defined by the 50mm focal length and the 24mm x 36mm sensor [film]). Since people were used to it, it became "normal".

A given lens will only be "normal" for a given system. "Normal" is not inherent in the lens.
The whole topic shows a widespread lack of underst... (show quote)

I hate to repeat myself but from the original post,
"when you consider that most entry level DSLR purchases are comprised of a camera and kit (read ‘zoom’) lens. Wide, normal, portrait are meaningless at that point. The beginner should learn with that lens, figure out what setting they use the most and from that when they want to go to prime lenses they’ll know what is standard for them."

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Jan 31, 2018 13:24:52   #
RWR Loc: La Mesa, CA
 
It’s not particularly complicated, most anyone ought to be able to grasp it.

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Jan 31, 2018 13:42:33   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
rjaywallace wrote:
I have said before (and oft been shouted down) that each manufacturer should label their lenses with its ‘true effective’ (cropped) size. Thus a Nikon DX 35mm lens could be labeled a 50mm (or 52.5mm) lens and users would know what they are reaching for without having to do a mental math adjustment first. An Oly/Pany 17mm would be labeled a 34mm lens.


But that is too simplistic and would be incorrect. A 35mm lens is a 35mm lens. It would be untrue to suggest otherwise. It's only the sensor size that makes the results look different. Your suggestion would really confuse anyone using, for instance, a new Canon EFs 35mm f/2.8 macro STM crop sensor designed lens and a Canon 35mm f/2 IS USM full frame lens on a crop body. Based on your suggestion the crop lens would be marked as a 56mm lens with Canon's 1.6 crop factor applied, while the full frame 35mm f/2 IS lens would still be marked as 35 mm. Two different marked focal lengths, and yet the image size will be exactly the same from both lenses on a crop camera. Talk about confusing.

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Jan 31, 2018 13:48:38   #
BebuLamar
 
I am in favor of marking the true focal length of the lens and the users should know what kind of view it give them for their camera. However, with the P&S and bridge cameras I am not so sure as the sensor size isn't obvious.

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Jan 31, 2018 14:11:48   #
G Brown Loc: Sunny Bognor Regis West Sussex UK
 
Actually, most people don't give a hoot. They say what camera they have and get told whether or not the lens they are looking at will fit. As for using 'the right lens'...well judging by the advice given here and on the net ...it could be anything.

We seem to be getting more arguments about minutia than advice on how to get the best out of what we have.

perhaps we should have a 'Technical Section' just above 'The attic' so that it can steer 'clear over our heads'.

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