BboH Loc: s of 2/21, Ellicott City, MD

Huh???
Have you downloaded the latest updates?

Each time Nikon comes out witha new moidel with its altered NEF they update NX2

Open NX2, click on Help then click on either "Check for Updates" or "Update Capture NX2"

Brian Platt Loc: Poole/Verwood, Dorset, UK

Lightroom keeps up with the different formats of RAW files. LR4 has no problem with up to and including D4/D800&E after that I dont know as that is the latest camera I have.

Mourfman Loc: Pittsburgh, PA

I usually follow these UHH hosts for the many lessons they afford me. However, this statement is wrong (for PC's) on a couple of levels:
- I have been using Nikon D100, D2X, D40, D200 and Coolpix 5700 for a long time. Always in RAW mode - more than 17,000 pics.
- Also using Adobe products (Photoshop CS, CS2, CS4, CS5, LR1-4,PSE9, 10 an 11)
I have found the Nikon RAW format (NEF) is accessible by several programs besides the Nikon NX variety.
Look at some of the HDR programs, Ardfry Imaging Codecs and even the microsoft camera codec all support the NEF format in one manner or another.
I would say there are a fair number of programs that support the NEF format and the Canon RAW format also.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

Repetitive saving is OK. It's editing and saving that loses the quality.

nikonshooter Loc: Spartanburg, South Carolina

Something is going on. To begin with, the saving of a NEF file to JPEG will not produce a 1.7 mb file unless you have selected save parameters that reduces (throws away pixels) the quality. You need to check the preferences you have selected when saving your files.

NX2 will open NEF files.

Peter Boyd Loc: Blyth nr. Newcastle U.K.

Totally wrong! Third party editing software such as PS is well able to open NEF files, if it were not then there wouldn't be any point in shooting RAW.

abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

Jerry, thank you for the correction. You are entirely correct.

Bob

abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

georgevedwards, Microsoft has a free viewer for raw files. Works on my Canon files. I would expect it to work for Nikon too.

Lorendn Loc: Jackson, WY

Jerry / Bob -

That is not true. Every time you open and then re-save a JPEG, it is re-compressed and you lose (a small amount of) quality. You can open and close JPEGs as often as you want in any viewing program and will not lose any data but if you open a JPEG in an editing program and do nothing - don't "save" the file again or it will be re-compressed.

I think the original question on this post was "Why is the JPEG so much smaller than the corresponding RAW file?" I guess the answer is obvious - you have thrown away a massive amount of image data and compressed what is left.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

I think this is one of those topics that mean more in discussion than in reality. It would probably take a magnifying glass to see any reduction in quality, whether the reduction is caused by editing or just re-saving. It's what I would call a moot point.

http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/formatsjpeg/a/jpegmythsfacts.htm

Lorendn Loc: Jackson, WY

Agree - very small point but people have a hard time deciding where the line is drawn about lossy compression and data loss. There is always some loss, the question is how much can your image afford to lose before quality is compromised? No good answer to that one....

abc1234 Loc: Elk Grove Village, Illinois

Jerry, a very informative link. Thanks for posting it.

In my workflow, I edit the raw and 90% of the time, never change it again. Then, I save it out as a jpg for email, web, or printing. Everything comes from the raw. No worries about lossy compression.

saichiez Loc: Beautiful Central Oregon

Sorry Jerry... Repetitive Opening and Closing is OK. Repetitive saving is not... whether you edit or just open and save. (Why would you open a file and save it anyway, without any edits?)

If you open a file, and then just save it as the jpg it was when you opened it, the compression algorythm runs at the quality level you have set on the final save box.

Saving a jpg at any time it's open on the screen will run compression again on the file.

Simply closing it without a save will not compress.

Regarding reduction in quality, self trained "Pixel Peekers" can find reduction in quality any time they feel the urge to whine about quality.

The Joint Photographers Experts Group (JPEG) who designed and produced the Jpg file format for compressing image files, intented to do the compression in areas of the image that had color in similar groups of pixels. The intent was to keep compression from being visible to the "naked eye"... (which by the way, "Pixel Peekers" do not have "naked eyes". They train their eyes to see degradation of the image in the complete absence of any [degradation, that is]).

To continue to beat this horse. The way to see reduction in image quality is to open and save (whether you make changes or not) a Jpeg file repeatedly (time after time progressively) about a dozen times. The compression algorythm is cumulative, and eventually even the untrained non-pixel-peeker eye will see quality reductions. Keep going and it will get even worse.

In Summary:

1) Open and close a jpeg with no save... no compression
2) Open and SAVE a jpeg (edit or not)... Compression occurs
3) Repeat Open and Save ensuing jpegs... Compression occurs on every save.
4) To avoid CUMULATIVE jpeg compression... give each save a new name and you will have compression, but as a copy of the original file opened.

For Archiving jpegs and saving them from CUMULATIVE compression, when you shoot Jpeg only, Archive your original jpegs. Then when you edit, go to your originals library and pull out a COPY of the file you want to edit. As long as you do not SAVE over the top of an original that is kept in Archive, you will always have a file that has ONLY the first compression reduction produced by the camera. And if your camera is set to Fine or High quality, that reduction will be minimal.

Certainly RAW file do have more information, and certainly RAW files do not allow destructive editing. However, one can accomplish somewhat the same protection for Jpegs, by always keeping an Archive (backup) of the originals, that never get saved over the top of. Always edit Copies of Jpeg originals, and you will be simulating one of the benefits of RAW... no reduction in quality of the first image produced by the camera.

Bonus Information:

Industry estimates are that roughly 74% of RAW shooters are afflicted by "Pixel Peeking". They suffer Cataracts and blindness sooner than most people.

42% of those "Chimp" in the field. In addition 27% of all RAW shooters use Very Large memory cards (32 - 64 Gb), so when a card goes bad. they lose BIG!

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

OK. Got it.

Lorendn Loc: Jackson, WY

Good summary - this should be archived since the topic comes up about every 3 weeks.

I re-read the article that Jerry posted and there was once subtle nuance in the article that is probably true. During any single editing session you probably can save a JPEG multiple times without multiple re-compressions. The compression after saving a file comes when the file is actually closed.