BebuLamar

Bob!
Although I don't always agree with you. In fact I disagreed with you on many of your posts. With that said I do not think there was anything wrong with what you posted in the thread. I do not think that it's fair.

artBob Loc: Near Chicago

I respect, and expect disagreement. Most of us here are human. In fact, I come here to learn and to share what works well and what works poorly. Thanks for your contribution to UHH and the role of discussion.

rook2c4 Loc: Philadelphia, PA USA

This is terrible news. I, as well as others, have always looked forward to your highly interesting, thought-provoking contributions to the FYC section. I think the moderator is making a HUGE mistake by banning you; rather than doing what is best for the FYC section, he is acting upon his personal feelings. And his persistent attacks on your artistic vision were most inappropriate, especially in his position as moderator. How disappointing!

artBob Loc: Near Chicago

Thank you for your support, and especially for helping me understand that my goal of helping and being helped was being reached.

Bill_de Loc: US

Should have posted this in Chit Chat. Nobody is going to learn anything about photography here.

The ideas of even the smartest people in the world may not be well received in some circles. Kids usually have a hissy fit and adults move on quietly. There is a vast grey area in between.

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artBob Loc: Near Chicago

You are right about hissy fits and all. However, being banned from a forum that I learned from and gave to is a notch above. As for Chit Chat, I am not sure. Not a subscriber to that forum, I thought this one was the best to reach a general audience of Hoggers, whose weight one way or the other might lead to some progress.

srt101fan

Bob,
I respect your extensive knowledge of the arts and your willingness to help learners. I didn’t really want to get involved in your disputes, but when you malign a person I have high respect for I feel compelled to comment. The moderator you speak of is knowledgeable, talented, and one of the most helpful of UHH posters.

I cannot judge the fairness of your being denied access to “For Your Consideration” (FYC). I don’t know the moderator, but he strikes me as a fair person trying his best to manage a small subset of the UHH forum. And I’ve seen no evidence that he’s doing a bad job.

It pains me to say this, but I believe the blame for your exclusion from FYC lies mostly on your own shoulders. In one thread you marked up someone’s posted photo without their permission. Whether or not it met the definition of the stated prohibition of unsolicited “edits” is essentially irrelevant. Compounding your initial mistake, you followed up with multiple posts that were uncalled for and disruptive. You were warned several times by the moderator and were asked for acknowledgement that in future you would follow the FYC rules. I believe the best reaction would have been just one short post explaining your position, apologizing to the offended party, and giving reassurance that you would not do this again.

In the more recent thread, apparently the one that caused your exclusion from FYC, you told the OP: “I see. Your goal as a photographer is to make money from shots that please others.” This may be a harmless factual statement from your perspective, but can you not see how that can easily be interpreted as a putdown of the photographer’s character? A snide swipe at the validity of the photographer’s motivation? And then your follow-on posts just added fuel to the fire….

Bob, You have much to contribute. Please review your own words in the threads that have become a problem for you, try to understand the other’s reaction to your actions, apologize where proper, and try to make peace with the moderator.

All the best to you!

P.S. I'm sure your response to this will be a demand for specific examples of language in your posts that I considered inappropriate, uncalled for or disruptive. You have a right to ask that, but that could lead to an endless back-and-forth that I do not want to engage in. I would just ask you to reread your own words assuming they came from someone else and were directed at you.....

lightchime Loc: Somewhere Over The Rainbow

Frankly, I have no idea what results in a dismissal from any of the forums. Over the years, I have viewed many less and less frequently. I made a choice and am happy that I did so.

I no longer post images and seldom make comments. Why, because I often do not appreciate what I see and read. Yet I am happy that the pictures of others are presented. I consider the comments valuable to many. I think that makes me a participant with a limited negativity.

The above generalizes my attitude. I continue.

Now for the critical statement. There are three moderators on that forum. I, as an individual, am not particularly enamored with the images they present or by their comments. That need not reflect on them or their visual presentations. It reflects on my expectations. artBob seems to have a problem with one of them, but the individual is unnamed. By not specifying that individual, he is also casting a shadow on the other two. He has not focused. For someone who touts his experience as a critic, he has not clearly shown his subject and has implicated others.

Bill_de Loc: US

Does being banned mean you can't look, or just can't post in the section? If they ban people from looking I think it is absurd. As for not being able to post, most of these 'section' were created by individuals with a specific agenda and have control over who can post. It's like being an ambassador, only here you serve at the pleasure of the moderator. If I remember correctly when the "Advice from the pros" section was starting you had to be invited to be a Pro who could answer questions.

If you feel you have a lot to offer, you could ask the Admin for your own section.

This statement ...

I thought this one was the best to reach a general audience of Hoggers

... pointed out that you posted where you thought it would do you the most good, without giving much consideration for the purpose of the section.

It's the little things that get magnified on the internet.

Good luck moving forward.

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E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Reality check!

I am a glutton for critiques! As a young upstart (100 years ago: sm24:) I craved critiques from my bosses, teachers, and especially the master photographers I respected. I realized this was one of my best ways of learning and improving. After my basic schooling was over and apprenticeships were completed, one would think my critiquing days would be over but to this day I have dozens of "critics", some folks call them clients, customers, art directors, editors, and mothers in law! I love it- it keeps me on my toes. I used to enter into competitions just to get the critiques! I still do that!

Let me brag- I know how to give and take a good critique. Everybody, however, is not like me and nor should they be or have to be! Nor does everybody want or like being criticized- even constructively- that is their right. Everyone has their own way of learning and some folks don't want to learn, others want to learn but not from you or me, that too is their right!

Then, there is the time and place ethic. There are a times and a places for critiquing. The forum is not a school, a classroom, a university, college or a military organization. It is not a place of mandatory on-the-job training. Some folks use it as a learning resource and some folks don't- they just want to show their work, share their experiences, and talk shop or equipment. You need to respect these concepts. You are not their teacher and you needn't issue "marks"! If they want marks or scores, they will ask for them.

There are the "Photo Analysis" and "Photo Critique" sections that are dedicated to critiquing. Why not hang out there and offer critiques for folks who really want them and where, when they post there, they assume receiving criticism is intrinsic in the rai·son d'ê·tre for the section. As I understand the forum rules, otherwise, section managers have the right to set their own bylaws as to critiquing and ban folks who insist on violating the ground rules for their sections or carry on protracted arguments that become tangential and distracting to the purpose and theme of their section. When there is too much argument as to the process, the substance gets lost in the chaos that ensues.

I prefer to refrain from boasting about my "credentials", I prefer to draw from my experiences as opposed to my "wallpaper"! Suffice it to say, I have a very comprehensive formal education, I have given and taken many classes, workshops, seminars, and instructed in photography training in the U.S. Army. I even got paid for some of this educational work, however, I like to think that everyone sitting in my classes invited and expected my criticisms.

I spent only a few years at war so I am a peaceful man- and have learned that unsolicited advice oftentimes brings on the antithesis of peace- not only in my photographic endeavors but in personal and family dynamics. As far as my participation this forum is concerned, I offer my advice, make suggestions, offer critiques when appropriate and asked to do so and usually forever hold my peace.

Admittedly, it is sometimes frustrating when I offer some basic and time-honored advice and someone comes up with a ridiculous argument and I have, occasionally, retorted with a stern rebuttal especially if I think someone is gonna get electrocuted or suffer a serious equipment loss based on poor or misleading advice. I won't, however, engage in ongoing protracted arguments because that would be an insult to everyone else's intelligence, reading on, who have the right to weigh the arguments and difference of opinion and make up their own minds and they certainly don't need browbeating or ongoing rants from me!

There are many photographers on this forum who complain about encountering legal problems, are restricted from shooting at various venues- even in public places, and get into all kinds of disputes and frustrations. Much of this could have been prevented by simply asking and securing permission. It's surprising how many folks will cooperate and acquiesce when they are politely, properly and duly approached and asked for their permission. I apply the same theory around here, I will not edit, critique or mess around with anyone's images without their permission.

This, of course, is my approach, advice, and MO and just as I have suggested, nobody else is obligated to conform to it. It just makes for more peaceful and helpful participation when I don't have to spend a great deal of time arguing and getting banned. Anyone who wants to seek out my advice or critiques knows where to find me. I might score half a dozen PM per year and live with it!

bsprague Loc: Lacey, WA, USA

That is the clever part of it. On the topic I read, there was no specific, single offending words. It was the creative, flowing tone of being negative and destructive.

Don't take me seriously. I only looked at one topic. You wove an insulting tone pattern where no single post, taken by itself, seemed nasty. All the rest of your posts may have been friendly, light hearted, positive and helpful.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

In the interest of truth-seeking, would someone please link a single instance that supports rook2c4's comment, "And his persistent attacks on your artistic vision were most inappropriate, especially in his position as moderator."

luvmypets Loc: Born & raised Texan living in Fayetteville NC

Bob

I apologize if you find what I am about to write offensive. It is not my intent to offend but to ask you to consider looking at this issue from a different perspective.

You stated you had been an instructor. I'm sure you wanted the give your students every ounce of knowledge and encouragement you could and that you want to do the same with the forum members. We can learn a lot from you if you will approach in the right manner. Less abrasion would create a conversation that would be more openly received. Consider the old adage "It's not necessarily what you say but how you say it". I'm sure it is not your intent to come across as rude and condescending.

It would be beneficial if you tried mending relationships with the OP and other members who frequent the FYC section. We all have a right to our opinion and the goal of an instructor should be to give the best instruction in a manner that gives the "student" encouragement and a desire to continue with the new knowledge they have received.

We all want to believe that somewhere in our lives we gave someone the inspiration and tools to achieve their goals and we hope that we are remembered for it.

JUST MY OPINION!!

Dodie

BebuLamar

As I said I don't think Bob said anything that deserved to be banned but he didn't teach the OP in the other thread anything.

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

My thoughts and opinions - and from experience I often turn out to be wrong to some degee.

I will make this comment and then withdraw, in fact I have doubts about getting into this to begin with.
You do often come across as condescending and righteous in the sense that you know "ART" and you often keep coming back. I seldom see you say it in plain language but it is the "feeling" and wording of your posts.
In fact the first time I saw your user name artBob it turned me off. Using "art" and doing the e e cummings bit of lower case just turns me off.
I have had some bad experiences with people who regarded themselves as "Artists". Being a professional juror/critic is not a plus to me. Many of them and the works they praise strike me as pretentious things done for the "in crowd". And they frequently look down on the tastes of most people. If a piece of "art" has to be explained or is only understood by the "in crowd" it doesn't do its job of presenting a message. A message that has to be translated isn't a message at all.
You state: "As mentioned, having wide experience in critiquing, I will not be bothered by opinions different than mine. It is hard but necessary to weigh all words and try to arrive at truth." Well that in itself comes across as false modesty and openness, in fact bragging.
Whose "truth"-your's of course, as opposed to mine, his , hers, their's or the truth of the guy across the park eating a sandwich and feeding the birds - in other words - not the truth of facts - the truth of opinion/belief. I am frequently guilty of this myself and constantly try to keep myself from doing it.
Without asking the moderator I will have to speculate: You probably got several complaints to the moderator over time and it is a case of the "complaint/offense" that broke the camels back.

There is a thing I used to teach all my students that I find many do not really understand - and often these are very intelligent and skilled people in their field. They are just so wrapped up in their own expertise that they don't see the difference most of the time. Or really understand that other people are not just like them.
Fact = something that any and all can agree on by checking to find if it is a true fact or a false fact "It is sunny today." anyone can look outside and determine if it is true or false
Opinion = something that is an internal belief that not everyone will agree about "It is a nice day." some like sunny days, some don't, some like sunny cool days but not sunny hot or cold etc etc

The pictures of Yosemite - you said they were good but immediately asked for non traditional/popular views that are different - to many that implies that the shots presented are only OK because they don't meet your criteria of different and therefore artistic.
The OP then replied that these are the kind of shots that people will buy - implying that the purpose is to sell images and make money. If that is the goal then they had better be the popular perspectives, otherwise no sales and the whole thing is a fail. Your comments after that could be interpreted as looking down on that goal as opposed to what in your opinion would be art.

And I have seen posts from you that I agreed with and liked.

I had better shut up now. In fact I just barely decided to post instead of delete - and that may very likely turn out to be the wrong decision on my part.