DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA

I am not really sure what you are referring to here. I agree that editing a raw file is nondestructive since editors do not do anything to the raw data other than read it. You CAN destroy a raw file by using the operating system to overwrite it with another file, but that has nothing to do with editing.

I took a raw file (nef) from my photopile. I started PS and opened the raw file. The first thing PS does is invoke ACR to convert the raw data to an image that PS can deal with. I know nothing about the format of this image, which I assume is really just internal to PS.

Next I clicked on "Save as". PS wants to save the file as a psd. I don't call a psd a raw file because it contains the internal PS format which has been extracted from the original raw file by ACR. (If you send an image to PS from LR, it has already gone through ACR). Other than psd, there are no save-as options to save the file as nef or any other raw format that I'm familiar with. Since I can't save the image to a raw file, I have no options within PS to change the file name. Of course I can change the name and save it as a psd, but as I said, I don't consider that a raw file.

Of course, the computer operating system is perfectly capable of copying any file to a new file with a new name, including raw files. I don't think that was what you are referring to.

And I am puzzled by just why you feel the need to give the new file a new name. Since PS/ACR does not modify the original raw file, I see no need to change the name to something else. The original raw file and the name thereof is just fine as far as the software is concerned.

The only thing I can think of is that you import with the original camera name and use the process you describe to give the file a meaningful name. THAT is something I can agree is a useful exercise. But it sounds as if you are doing this in a two-step process. I rename all my raw files at import time so my computer never really sees the camera file name (except that Downloader Pro, the program I use for importing and changing the name, runs within the computer so the original camera name goes into DP but does not come out into the computer). This is a one-step process so the original camera file name is never applied to a file residing within my computer.

Admittedly, the original camera file name is not COMPLETELY meaningless, since to some extent it gives you information about the number of shots you have taken with your camera (although there are ways to change the numbering so that is not strictly true). But I consider it a stretch to call the original camera name meaningful.

And I feel that meaningful file names are useful. If you are using LR as your organizational manager, file names are irrelevant and the original camera name is just fine. But although I depend strongly on LR for my image organization, none of my family knows anything about how to use LR. If I pop off, my images will be pretty much lost to the family. But if the files have a meaningful name, the family has a chance of finding things they might be interested in.

nikonbrain Loc: Crystal River Florida

You Are dense a raw file in a PSD remains a Editable file with all the raw data until saved and does not touch the original Raw file in its home location until saved even if I save it it doesn't touch the original file that file remains a raw file unedited.I can even go back to the opening of the file and still edit it at its original state @ import with all pixel unlocked that is what I am trying to get through your thick skull . You teaching Me now thats a Joke .

DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA

Yes, a PSD can be edited (by PS and a few other programs). But I do not believe it contains the original raw data.

The first thing PS does when presented with a raw file is open ACR. That will demosaic the raw data to provide PS with an image it can work with.

I will admit that I am not certain about this because I don't know the mechanics of just how all that is done, and PS contains an ACR filter, with which you can modify your original extraction. But I have not played with that to find out just how much you can change things.

nikonbrain Loc: Crystal River Florida

[quote=DirtFarmer]I am not really sure what you are referring to here. I agree that editing a raw file is nondestructive since editors do not do anything to the raw data other than read it. You CAN destroy a raw file by using the operating system to overwrite it with another file, but that has nothing to do with editing.

ACR doesn't extract anything from a raw file it copies it leaving the raw file untouched same as me coping a folder full of raw fills and backing it up in another location . The folder of raw file remain untouched . Now when I work on a file from the original file and make changes to it and just save it and don't give it a different name as in "DSCN2041" the original name as a NEF file and simply save it as a Tiff or Jpeg it forever changes that original file and the raw file is lost .By changing its Name to "DSCN2041 A" it leaves the raw file intact and it remains a raw file untouched .....and unedited just like copping it to another location .

nikonbrain Loc: Crystal River Florida

When saved as a PSD it still keeps all raw data @ a editable state in a sense if using layers the layers are a progression of edits . Let's say I edit with 25 layers and I go back to my opening history state because I printed a proof and i didn't like it , it is now the same editable raw data from the original file with all pixels unlocked The PSD didn't change anything nor destroyed any raw data . I can simply delete or save it for later edit it does not change the original raw file because it is a copy . If I was making a calendar with 12 separate tiff images and 12 separate calendar months each on a different layer i can turn all of them off but the ones being printed and they won't interfere with the printing on most printers . That is why people use PSDs . You can always re edit .

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

When ACR transfers the image to Photoshop the raw data is converted to RGB data and any PSD file you save does not contain raw data. The raw data does not remain editable inside the PSD file. There is no raw data inside the PSD file. If you return to the raw file in ACR you can't make changes that will update all of the edits made in the PSD file and that's a destructive element in your editing workflow. My example proved that. Please prove otherwise or remain proven wrong.

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

That's why the good folks at Adobe will tell you to go as far with an image in Lightroom Classic as you possibly can, before handing it off to Photoshop or another editor. When you do hand it to another app, do so as a 16-bit file in the ProPhoto RGB color space, to preserve as much data as possible. Hand the file back to Lightroom Classic in that same 16-bit format and ProPhoto RGB color space. Then, when printing or exporting from LrC, you'll have the most available data possible to convert.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

There is no raw data in a PSD file. ACR converts the raw data to RGB data when the image is transferred to PS.

No, that is incorrect. If you return in a PSD file to the point where the converted RGB data was received from ACR you do not have raw data. You have RGB data.

No one has said it does.

You can always re-edit RGB data in a PSD file. But there is no raw data in a PSD file and I'm talking about a raw workflow.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Your belief is correct. There is no raw data in a PSD file.

The Camera Raw filter in Photoshop does not re-access the original raw data but instead works with the converted (demosaiced) RGB data. The only way to get back to the original raw data is to to re-open the raw file in ACR.

nikonbrain Loc: Crystal River Florida

Now what do you want me to do I can't send the PSD so you could turn the branch on and off because this site doesn't support it . You will notice I upsized My version so you could see it better .

(Download)


(Download)

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Change the camera input profile. In ACR when you first opened the raw file you had to either accept the Adobe standard input profile or select one of the other options. Adobe provides simulations of the Canon profiles Faithful, Neutral, Landscape and Portrait. Change the input profile back in ACR to Landscape and have that change update the cloning work you did in PS so that you don't have to do that cloning work over.


EDIT: You didn't download the raw file. Those are the JPEGs I presented in my example. What are you doing?

nikonbrain Loc: Crystal River Florida

I open a raw file in photoshop it is considered raw data from the sensor and i work on it in ACR I am working on raw 16 bit data . While I am working on it I am needed elsewhere And I save it as a PSD I come back in an hour reopen the PSD in photoshop I can reopen the PSD and restart working on raw data in other programs with the pixels unlocked nothing changed . In essence I never left I can even go back to the opening history state and reopen it in ACR .I can even work where I left off and open in ACR you are given that option with photoshop . You can't do that with a tiff file even though its 16bit .

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

It's probably 14 bit data if you're working with NEF files.

No. When you saved the PSD file you saved RGB data and not raw data. ACR converts the raw data to RGB data when the image is transferred to Photoshop. If you save a PSD file you are not saving raw data you are saving RGB data. IT MATTERS.

To re-open the image in ACR you would have to have transferred a Smart Object from ACR to Photoshop. It's still RGB data in Photoshop and not raw data, but you can re-open the raw file in ACR via the Smart Object and that will allow you to update the Smart Object with changes made in ACR. HOWEVER if the PSD file contains any raster layers like cloning/healing work those raster layers will not update the change made in ACR and that's a destructive editing element.

DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA

So if I understand you correctly, you start with a raw file, e.g. DSCN2041.NEF and open it in PS. You then save the file as DSCN2041A.PSD.

My point was that since you are changing the extension on the file, there is no need to add "A" to the file name since your computer will recognize DSCN2041.NEF and DSCN2041.PSD as separate files and you will not be overwriting anything. If you are depending on the psd file for your raw data, then (since PS doesn't save history) you will have to change the psd file name.

I am still not clear on just how the image is placed in PS. I had always thought that ACR converted the raw data to an image by demosaicing the data. If it just stores the data, it is unclear to me why it offers a panel of settings to modify the image before transferring the image to PS. Why not just do everything in PS? The existence of the ACR filter makes me wonder just how that works.

But the existence of an ACR filter in PS makes me think that the raw data might still be available to PS.

I have some chores to do and some things to try. Back in a few hours.

nikonbrain Loc: Crystal River Florida

First of all I am not going to create an account in dropbox to satisfy your whims .2nd if you know what your doing you would not use cloning to get rid of a branch you would select it with the selection tool rectangular or circular go to edit / fill/content aware and it magically disappears . There is no reason to download your raw file then send you a PSD Back just to show you the results are the same .