How do you get it sharp
Dec 9, 2016 12:42:15 #
Kissel vonKeister
Loc: Georgia
Turn stabilization off when you're on a tripod. If it's perfectly still it CREATES movement.
Dec 9, 2016 12:48:28 #
Meives wrote:
ISO of 100 is for old film cameras. ISO 800, 1600 gather more light and make for a better picture most of the time. David
Do you have any examples to show?
If I am on a solid tripod, I have no issues at ISO 100, and even lower if I am trying to get star trails, etc. ISO 800, 1600 isn't gathering more light - but it is decreasing your signal to noise ratio and having a negative impact on image quality - most of the time. I shoot nighttime shots at base ISO without issue.
This was shot at 1.3 sec and F5, ISO 100, using a 100-300 F5, stitched pano, from Hamilton Park in Weehawken, NJ on cliffs over the Hudson River. The other two shots are crops from the main image. The distance to the buildings at the water's edge is about half a mile, and as you can see, there was a fair amount of haze.
I don't have examples using really high ISO for night shots, but my experience has been that detail gets lost in the noise the higher you go on ISO, so it is usually preferable to stay as low as you can.
Dec 9, 2016 13:10:58 #
manofhg
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Here is a 20 sec., 100 ISO shot taken on a cheap tripod and at least a light breeze. The picture isn't great, but I didn't have motion issues while using a light weight tripod. There is some blurred subjects in the grass at the bottom throwing a lighted Frisbee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30090498@N05/20918321831/in/album-72157636975518243/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30090498@N05/20918321831/in/album-72157636975518243/
Dec 9, 2016 13:11:42 #
Gene51 wrote:
I don't have examples using really high ISO for night shots, but my experience has been that detail gets lost in the noise the higher you go on ISO, so it is usually preferable to stay as low as you can.
I don't have examples using really high ISO for night shots, but my experience has been that detail gets lost in the noise the higher you go on ISO, so it is usually preferable to stay as low as you can.
Great night shots.
Did you get these with one exposure or bracketed ?
Dec 9, 2016 13:36:25 #
amfoto1
Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
Camera Maker: Canon
Camera Model: Canon EOS 60D
Lens: EF-S18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM
Image Date: 2016-12-07 22:16:38 (no TZ)
Focal Length: 64mm
Aperture: ƒ/8.0
Exposure Time: 30.000 s
ISO equiv: 100
Exposure Bias: none
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: aperture priority (semi-auto)
White Balance: Auto
Flash Fired: No (enforced)
Orientation: Rotate 270
Color Space: sRGB
There are several reasons the buildings and trees don't look sharp.
Other objects in the image appear sharp... such as the sign and lamp post.
>>>> 30 second exposure... you're going to see a lot of flare effects from the building lights. That's part of what makes the buildings look less sharp. (Unlit or less well-lit portions look sharper than brightly lit.) If you have a "protection filters" on the lens, it might be contributing to and increasing flare from the lights.
>>> 30 second exposure... the tree branches and leaves likely moved a bit during exposure, even if it seemed there was no breeze. It's always risky using a long exposure with foliage that's easily moved.
>>> 30 second exposure... also might have been some vibrations due to traffic, even when using a tripod (carbon fiber tripods are better than metal, with respect to transferring vibrations, but even so might not have completely resolved it).
Actually, that's not the case with most Canon lenses.
>>> 30 second exposure... with image stabilization on, might have caused some loss of sharpness, though I doubt it in this case. Most more recent Canon IS lenses self-detect when there is no movement and turn off IS automatically. The result is exactly the same as if you turn it off manually at the switch. But, sometimes IS can cause a slow "image drift" that can be problematic with long exposures... or with very precise framing... or with video. So, yes, it probably would have been better to turn off IS, just to be safe. It really served no purpose in this case. (Note: I have no idea how third party and other OEM lens stabilization systems work.... this only applies to Canon OEM lenses. And there are a few Canon lenses... mostly older models... where IS absolutely must be turned off at the switch, when fully locked down on a tripod to eliminate all movement, including: EF 28-135mm IS, EF 300/4L IS, original EF 100-400L IS, original EF 24-105L and the long discontinued EF 70-300mm IS. With these particular lenses, if there is no actual movement for it to correct and IS is left on, it will go into sort of a feedback loop where it actually causes movement.... which you'll see as rapid jumps and shaking in your viewfinder. Won't damage the lens or camera, but will make a mess of any images.)
So, in the end I think various softness "issues" in the image can mostly be traced back to the very long exposure. Flare, subject movement blur, camera vibration/shake blur, IS movement.... they all are possibilities and all are compounded by the very long exposure.
You could have used a higher ISO and much faster shutter speed, minimizing the risk of subject blur from flare, movement, and vibrations. While it's often tempting to use the lowest ISO possible to minimize noise in images, you have to weigh that against other factors such as these. Next time, go ahead and make that 30 second long exposure at ISO 100, if such a long exposure is required.... but perhaps also try some shorter exposures at ISO 200 (15 seconds), ISO 400 (8 seconds), 800 (4 seconds) and 1600 (2 seconds).
But, even at ISO 100, a 30 second exposure just seems way too long for shots such as yours. Notice the other night shots many folks have shown are using a much faster shutter speed, even when using ISO 100. I suspect you relied upon auto exposure, which might have caused way longer exposure than actually necessary, when the camera metered the overall scene as "very dark" and tried to lighten it up too much. I notice you have no Exposure Compensation at all dialed in (which is one way to stop the camera from over-exposing a predominantly dark scene... another way is to switch to manual mode and simply make your own settings).
So length of exposure is another thing you might want to experiment with and "bracket", when making night shots. Leaving the ISO set, you might want to shoot one stop, two stops, even three stops under... then have those to choose between. In this case, with 30 seconds as the "full" exposure, 15 seconds would be one stop under, 8 seconds two stops, and 4 seconds three stops. With experience, as you learn how your camera and lens perform at different settings, as well as what settings render things as you want to see them, you'll probably be able to do less bracketing in the future. But for now, it's probably a good idea to experiment a bit. Your camera has means of setting up bracketing automatically, but for occasional, simple situations such as these, I often find it quicker and easier to just make the adjustments manually.
Your camera has Long Exposure Noise Reduction feature, too, which you might try for the longer exposure shots. HOWEVER, it's very important to be aware how Canon's LENR works.
First, when it's enabled LENR only works on exposures of 1 second or longer (if you rarely do 1 sec. and longer shots, it's easy to forget you have LENR enabled). And, the way it works is that immediately after the first exposure, the camera will make a second exposure of the same duration, but with the shutter closed. The camera then uses this second "blank" image to identify noise, which it then "subtracts" from the first image.
So, when you use LENR it will actually take twice as long to make an image. That 30 second shot would actually take 60 seconds... 8 seconds will take 16 seconds.... etc. If you forget LENR is enabled and why things are taking so long, then cancel the second exposure before it's complete (such as by turning off the camera or removing the battery), the camera will discard both that second exposure AND the first one you made! More than a few people have been confounded by, 1. why it was taking so darned long and 2. why their long exposure images had disappeared completely when they cancelled the 2nd exposure.
Also, when taking multiple long exposures be sure you have a well-charged battery and/or a spare. Keep an eye on the battery condition indicator. The camera draws power continuously while making these exposures... holding the shutter open, powering the sensor and holding the mirror up out of the way. As a result, you'll get a whole lot fewer shots per charge, with extra long exposures. And, if battery power drops too low during that 2nd "blank" LENR exposure, you'll lose both images the same way as if you'd cancelled the shot yourself.
Camera Model: Canon EOS 60D
Lens: EF-S18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM
Image Date: 2016-12-07 22:16:38 (no TZ)
Focal Length: 64mm
Aperture: ƒ/8.0
Exposure Time: 30.000 s
ISO equiv: 100
Exposure Bias: none
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: aperture priority (semi-auto)
White Balance: Auto
Flash Fired: No (enforced)
Orientation: Rotate 270
Color Space: sRGB
There are several reasons the buildings and trees don't look sharp.
Other objects in the image appear sharp... such as the sign and lamp post.
>>>> 30 second exposure... you're going to see a lot of flare effects from the building lights. That's part of what makes the buildings look less sharp. (Unlit or less well-lit portions look sharper than brightly lit.) If you have a "protection filters" on the lens, it might be contributing to and increasing flare from the lights.
>>> 30 second exposure... the tree branches and leaves likely moved a bit during exposure, even if it seemed there was no breeze. It's always risky using a long exposure with foliage that's easily moved.
>>> 30 second exposure... also might have been some vibrations due to traffic, even when using a tripod (carbon fiber tripods are better than metal, with respect to transferring vibrations, but even so might not have completely resolved it).
Kissel vonKeister wrote:
Turn stabilization off when you're on a tripod. If it's perfectly still it CREATES movement.
Actually, that's not the case with most Canon lenses.
>>> 30 second exposure... with image stabilization on, might have caused some loss of sharpness, though I doubt it in this case. Most more recent Canon IS lenses self-detect when there is no movement and turn off IS automatically. The result is exactly the same as if you turn it off manually at the switch. But, sometimes IS can cause a slow "image drift" that can be problematic with long exposures... or with very precise framing... or with video. So, yes, it probably would have been better to turn off IS, just to be safe. It really served no purpose in this case. (Note: I have no idea how third party and other OEM lens stabilization systems work.... this only applies to Canon OEM lenses. And there are a few Canon lenses... mostly older models... where IS absolutely must be turned off at the switch, when fully locked down on a tripod to eliminate all movement, including: EF 28-135mm IS, EF 300/4L IS, original EF 100-400L IS, original EF 24-105L and the long discontinued EF 70-300mm IS. With these particular lenses, if there is no actual movement for it to correct and IS is left on, it will go into sort of a feedback loop where it actually causes movement.... which you'll see as rapid jumps and shaking in your viewfinder. Won't damage the lens or camera, but will make a mess of any images.)
So, in the end I think various softness "issues" in the image can mostly be traced back to the very long exposure. Flare, subject movement blur, camera vibration/shake blur, IS movement.... they all are possibilities and all are compounded by the very long exposure.
You could have used a higher ISO and much faster shutter speed, minimizing the risk of subject blur from flare, movement, and vibrations. While it's often tempting to use the lowest ISO possible to minimize noise in images, you have to weigh that against other factors such as these. Next time, go ahead and make that 30 second long exposure at ISO 100, if such a long exposure is required.... but perhaps also try some shorter exposures at ISO 200 (15 seconds), ISO 400 (8 seconds), 800 (4 seconds) and 1600 (2 seconds).
But, even at ISO 100, a 30 second exposure just seems way too long for shots such as yours. Notice the other night shots many folks have shown are using a much faster shutter speed, even when using ISO 100. I suspect you relied upon auto exposure, which might have caused way longer exposure than actually necessary, when the camera metered the overall scene as "very dark" and tried to lighten it up too much. I notice you have no Exposure Compensation at all dialed in (which is one way to stop the camera from over-exposing a predominantly dark scene... another way is to switch to manual mode and simply make your own settings).
So length of exposure is another thing you might want to experiment with and "bracket", when making night shots. Leaving the ISO set, you might want to shoot one stop, two stops, even three stops under... then have those to choose between. In this case, with 30 seconds as the "full" exposure, 15 seconds would be one stop under, 8 seconds two stops, and 4 seconds three stops. With experience, as you learn how your camera and lens perform at different settings, as well as what settings render things as you want to see them, you'll probably be able to do less bracketing in the future. But for now, it's probably a good idea to experiment a bit. Your camera has means of setting up bracketing automatically, but for occasional, simple situations such as these, I often find it quicker and easier to just make the adjustments manually.
Your camera has Long Exposure Noise Reduction feature, too, which you might try for the longer exposure shots. HOWEVER, it's very important to be aware how Canon's LENR works.
First, when it's enabled LENR only works on exposures of 1 second or longer (if you rarely do 1 sec. and longer shots, it's easy to forget you have LENR enabled). And, the way it works is that immediately after the first exposure, the camera will make a second exposure of the same duration, but with the shutter closed. The camera then uses this second "blank" image to identify noise, which it then "subtracts" from the first image.
So, when you use LENR it will actually take twice as long to make an image. That 30 second shot would actually take 60 seconds... 8 seconds will take 16 seconds.... etc. If you forget LENR is enabled and why things are taking so long, then cancel the second exposure before it's complete (such as by turning off the camera or removing the battery), the camera will discard both that second exposure AND the first one you made! More than a few people have been confounded by, 1. why it was taking so darned long and 2. why their long exposure images had disappeared completely when they cancelled the 2nd exposure.
Also, when taking multiple long exposures be sure you have a well-charged battery and/or a spare. Keep an eye on the battery condition indicator. The camera draws power continuously while making these exposures... holding the shutter open, powering the sensor and holding the mirror up out of the way. As a result, you'll get a whole lot fewer shots per charge, with extra long exposures. And, if battery power drops too low during that 2nd "blank" LENR exposure, you'll lose both images the same way as if you'd cancelled the shot yourself.
Dec 9, 2016 13:54:11 #
Gene51 wrote:
These two images were taken with a 30 sec exposure, no shutter delay, no mirror lockup, no remote cable release, no live view previewing. Finger on the shutter, arm draped on the lens, Feisol CT3472, Arca-Swiss Z1 ball head. Pretty solid platform though hardly monumental. The tripod collar on the lens is close to useless, which is why I stabilize the lens with my left hand/arm draped over the lens. In the second image you can see star trails.
Gene,
What does "arm draped over the lens" mean?
Dec 9, 2016 13:59:32 #
Jim Bob wrote:
Why do you feel the need to post your images as responses to all threads? You must be horribly insecure or in desperate need for validation of some sort. Geesus.
This is an incredibly inappropriate and plain mean spirited comment. It was clear that he posted the photos as a means of being instructive and helpful and I for one appreciate that.
Dec 9, 2016 14:09:05 #
bkellyusa wrote:
This is an incredibly inappropriate and plain mean spirited comment. It was clear that he posted the photos as a means of being instructive and I for one appreciate that.
Well said, bkellyusa.
Dec 9, 2016 14:19:27 #
Not discussed: Everything in the foreground is sharp, are you sure that the buildings weren't moving ????
Dec 9, 2016 14:26:33 #
amfoto1
Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
bkellyusa wrote:
Gene,
What does "arm draped over the lens" mean?
What does "arm draped over the lens" mean?
While I'm not Gene, I can guess that he's referencing an earlier response that suggested using a sandbag or other weight to help stabilize things for long exposures.
I've done that at times... hung some sort of weight from the tripod and/or placed it on top of the camera/lens. Sandbag is one way to go (I fill mine with uncooked red beans, instead of actual sand). To help anchor a tripod, even hanging one's camera bag or backpack under it can work pretty well. This assumes you're using a tripod that can handle the weight, of course.
"Draping one's arm over the lens" is just sort of a half-a**ed way of doing the same thing (which I've also done on more than a few occasions... not casting aspersions on Gene.)
Dec 9, 2016 14:31:57 #
photoman022
Loc: Manchester CT USA
Last year I copied and pasted a night time exposure guide, unfortunately I did not copy and paste the website the guide was on. Their suggestions, which I've followed with great success, for a cityscape at night is f/16 ISO 100 @ 20 seconds. The aperture remains constant, but if you change the ISO: ISO 200 @ 10 seconds; ISO 400 @ 5 seconds. They have a variety of other night time exposure suggestions for other subjects as well. I use a remote trigger to minimize even a tiny bit of camera shake; I do not use live view/mirror lock up. I shoot Nikon so all of my VR/IS lenses will shake while on a tripod (so my VR is permanently off -- long, sad story).
As I've stated, the exposure guide works when I've used it.
As I've stated, the exposure guide works when I've used it.
Dec 9, 2016 14:36:38 #
photoman022 wrote:
Last year I copied and pasted a night time exposur... (show quote)
Any idea where the entire guide was originally posted?
Dec 9, 2016 14:53:17 #
manofhg wrote:
Here is a 20 sec., 100 ISO shot taken on a cheap tripod and at least a light breeze. The picture isn't great, but I didn't have motion issues while using a light weight tripod. There is some blurred subjects in the grass at the bottom throwing a lighted Frisbee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30090498@N05/20918321831/in/album-72157636975518243/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30090498@N05/20918321831/in/album-72157636975518243/
Looks good to me - no movement, details nice and crisp, and whaddyaknow - ISO 100 again.
Dec 9, 2016 14:57:28 #
photoman022 wrote:
Last year I copied and pasted a night time exposur... (show quote)
http://www.stacken.kth.se/~maxz/files/jiffy.pdf
It was originally published in Popular Photography(?) back in the mid 60s.
Dec 9, 2016 15:20:48 #
manofhg wrote:
Here is a 20 sec., 100 ISO shot taken on a cheap tripod and at least a light breeze. The picture isn't great, but I didn't have motion issues while using a light weight tripod. There is some blurred subjects in the grass at the bottom throwing a lighted Frisbee.
ldttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30090498@N05/20918321831/in/album-72157636975518243/
ldttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30090498@N05/20918321831/in/album-72157636975518243/
This may not be a great shot but it is pretty damn good as far as I can see. Most people would be thrilled with a photo that is this technically correct. Myself included.
I don't get why there seems to be two flares from a single lighted Frizbee.
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