Uuglypher Loc: South Dakota (East River)

Just a thought on responses to constructive criticism and critiques...
Often, positive comments and critiques are called "kind" which implies something perhaps pleasant to receive, yet perhaps undeserved.
I really think that when positive comments are rendered, and objectively suported, they are deserved, not simply "kind". I do understand that to call them "kind" is a humble thing to do, and that humility is a common and pleasant characteristic of many of our participants, but the other side of that coin is that to characterize a statement of praise as merely "kind" is to somehow (and I'm sure unintentionally) diminish its sincere intent. I do think there is ample evidence of kind intent behind many critiques that point out a variety of remedial technical and pp techniques, so that when totally positive comment is deservedly offered, it need not be thought to be "kind".

Just a thought that I offer with some trepidation that it might be received negatively. It certainly is not, in any manner, meant so.

Best regards,
Dave in SD

HEART Loc: God's Country - COLORADO

Well thought-out, Dave!

dsmeltz Loc: Philadelphia

SHUT UP!!! And I mean that in the kindest way.

Seriously, your point is well taken. :thumbup:

Uuglypher Loc: South Dakota (East River)

Thank you, Heart.
Dave

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

This doesn't make sense to me. If a person is kind enough to take the time and help me or tell me that they appreciated something I've created...and then I thank them for being kind or for their "kind words"...that diminishes what they've said?

That makes no sense to me...or maybe I didn't get what you are saying.

Uuglypher Loc: South Dakota (East River)

Gotta admit, dsmeltz, that "SHUT UP" did catch me unawares...but thanks for the final "thumbs up".

Dave

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Dave, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say.
But when it comes to critique there are many that have no clue how to give one. Critique, just like photography is a learned art. Some have learned it well(kind) and others are just flat out lousy at it and hide behind the veil of brutal honesty(unkind).
The more you know about photography the better(kinder) you can be at critique.
Most pics have at least some good attributes and a good critiquer can bring that out positively which then sets the stage to go onto the poorer aspects in a seemingly kind way. Dave, I probably made less sense than you did! :lol:
SS

Uuglypher Loc: South Dakota (East River)

Hi, SS,
I've read what you've written and find us, on most of your points, to be for the most part or completely in agreement. And some of your particular points,in fact, were likely more important than mine.

Now, getting to my point (and I do,have one), it was that for the submitting artist to characterize some received positive comments and constructive criticisms as merely " kind" can mistakenly suggest that they were offered more out of a sense undeserved praise offered to boster the spirits of a less-than-deserving tyro. Praise that is truly sincere and objectively offered and justified should be recognized as such, and deserves NOT to be relegated to the realm of mere "kindness".

Best regards,
Dave

Uuglypher Loc: South Dakota (East River)

Hi, SS,
I tried to augment tnis response, but the time limit for editing had expired, so here's a more complete response to your points:

I've read what you've written and find us, on most of your points, to be for the most part or completely in agreement. And some of your particular points,in fact, were likely more important than mine.

Now, getting to my point (and I do,have one), it was that for the submitting artist to perceive some received positive comments and constructive criticisms as merely " kind" can mistakenly suggest that they were offered more out of a sense undeserved praise offered to boster the spirits of a less-than-deserving tyro. Praise that is truly sincere and objectively offered and objectively justified should be recognized as such, and deserves NOT to be relegated to the realm of mere "kindness".

A photographer submits an image to the Photo Critique Section hoping that it will be judged as a finished effort (just as it would be judged in a photography contest or show) and with the expectation that the critics / judges will do their best to explain and justify their criticisms, both positive and negative. That is why the managers of the Critique Section frequently ask " Why is this image "nice"", asking us all to toe the line of doing exactly what submitters to the Photo Critique Section expect when their image is displayed to us all with as few warts and as many positive attributes as possible. The problem arises wihen the submitted image receives merely subjectively positive ("Nice shot") platitudes, but no objectively unsupported praise. The possibility then arises that the praise was, truly, merely "kind".

Best regards,
Dave

amehta Loc: Boston

Is it possible that the word "kind" does not refer to the praise or criticism, but an acknowledgement of the effort put into the comment or the manner in which the criticism was made?

RJM Loc: Cardiff, S Wales, UK

This was discussed on another forum I post on.

They came up with the idea that a user put HTBC after their user name, meaning 'Happy To Be Critiqued'.

This indicates the user wishes to improve and is happy to have feedback.

But as you say, as long as it's explained why and done with good intention.

dsmeltz Loc: Philadelphia

I find the “brutal honesty” is a form of self delusion.
When someone says: “Look, I always tell it like it is!!!” I think, no you don’t! You don’t walk down the street saying , “Hey you! Your nose is too big!!!, And YOU!!! You seem like you are an excellent banker!!! And look!!! There are ants on the ground!!! That tree is too green for this time of year!!!”

No one has time to that “honest.”

We all select the “truths” we point out, those we choose not to point out and how we say them. So if you get harsh and rude, you are not just being honest, you are just being harsh and rude.

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

While I like the points you bring up I think it matters most whether or not the person wants brutal honesty. It also matters whether or not change can be made. Your example of, "Your nose is too big", is an example. Obviously no one can change the size of their nose, not easily anyway.

Don't get me wrong. I do agree with what you are saying. My point is some people don't really want an honest critique of their photos or anything else.

Earlier this morning I saw a poster had submitted a photo of a bird and asked for comments. I have fallen into this trap before and offered my comments, some of them negative about the photo. I was severely chastised by the submitter as well as other UHH members for being unkind. With the bird photo this morning the photo was too dark, out of focus and cropped too tight if it was cropped. Having nothing good to say I merely went to the next topic. Like you I realize that brutal honesty is sometimes not a good thing.

Dennis

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

Dave,

I like what you are saying and agree. I also have to agree with Ameta in that sometimes people who submit their opinions on a photograph submitted to the critique section are kind if only because they are taking their valuable time to look at all aspects of a photo, color, composition, tonality and give their honest rating in writing. As we know from the critique section we can't simply say I like the photo a lot. We are required to give specifics as to why we like the photo and what qualities we note that make the photograph special (or not). The kind comments may not be so much for saying the photograph is good but more for taking the time to critique the photo.

Dennis

Uuglypher Loc: South Dakota (East River)

Hi, Amehta and dennis,
"Possible"? Possibly, but in the great majority of cases that comments are referred to as "kind" they are obviously positive. It has been my observation that in those cases when appreciation is offered for constructive and negative comments, they are generally characterized by the recipient as "thoughtful", "gentle" , and / or "helpful"....rarely, if ever, "kind".

Dave