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Apr 7, 2018 13:07:23   #
And some new opinions from 2006
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/413047

Gotta love the internet
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Apr 7, 2018 12:46:46   #
InfiniteISO wrote:
Let's take one more crack at the circle of confusion. When you look at an image with bokeh you're looking at circles of confusion. When those circles are so small that your sensor can't tell them apart from focused points of light, they are within your depth of field. To our eyes given the resolution of the system we're working with, they are in focus.

Circles of confusion and the circular image protected by a lens are two separate things.


I'm going back to shooting and leave camera design to you......I'm sure you are correct.
You will never see a round sensor ...... You need to get off the round thing which as you originally said was an after thought ...as it should be. Advocate for a mini medium format square.
Now you have something.......Pour me another....please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_confusion
"Real lenses do not focus all rays perfectly, so that even at best focus, a point is imaged as a spot rather than a point. "
You are ignoring all the issues with lens design. And that no one wants a round sensor ...OK I don't have all the information to say that

Maybe we should be smoking and not drinking......for medical purposes?

Let me add one more thing .....cropping should be done in the field with your feet and especially with your lens choice.

Sincerely you are fun to talk to ...... You do know what your talking about. But your round sensor idea is smokey bar conversation.
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Apr 7, 2018 12:04:46   #
The bottom line is: If your sensor matched the circular image available from the lens when it is in focus

How about this: "Your right"....but your still dreaming.
This is conversation of crazyness best had ....while drinking with friends
I hope we are still friends
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Apr 7, 2018 11:55:45   #
InfiniteISO wrote:
Did you read my response when you asked this the first time? It's back a bit now. It's also perfectly OK not to understand this crazy thread.


I did and that is where you lost me ....focus being different that the circle of confusion. It is a bit of a crazy idea, square sure but round is weird ......like the 1889 first Kodak.
You talk about lens projection ...that is circle on confusion.....my guess is that's not where you going. And you see projection different than circle on confusion

I'll look for your new idea on the shelves;-) ......its too early for Scotch
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Apr 7, 2018 11:17:03   #
Can some one tell me the difference between the Circle of confusion and "project a round image" ?
Aren't they the same ......either way I like my camera as it is. Although the square format was ideal
I'm just trying to understand this crazy thread.
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Apr 6, 2018 17:32:09   #
InfiniteISO wrote:
It may be that at some focal lengths a larger circle (that's in focus) is generated. I'd have to experiment. What's for certain is that the bare minimum circle is 43 mm.

I took a couple of Nikon film bodies to Good Will the other day. They were N-series Auto Focus. My daughter had to shoot film for a couple of weeks in her photography class and I picked them up for that for a few dollars each. I had sold my own film equipment a few years after I started shooting digital. I wish I had kept one. I could have rigged up something to experiment with by cannibalizing one of those bodies.
It may be that at some focal lengths a larger circ... (show quote)


Let me start by saying I don't know the math or have I tested the circle on today's cameras as it doesn't matter in my photography
That said in the days of view cameras the circle was about lens design and not focal length.8.25: gold Dagor would cover 11x14 which made is a great lens on 8x10 yet a modern 210 Schneider barely covered 8x10 it was designed for 4x5 format...a smaller circle needed to cover and use adjustments

Why would you think that all lenses of different designs, different manufactures, different focal lengths would all have the same Circle of confusion?
Look at wide angle lenses, some have more fall off than others...... different designs....right?

Look at those Zeiss Otus series ...I forget the others names.
One reason that are so good corner to corner is they have gigantic circle of confusion using the "meaty" part of the lens
Same for the Leica SL 24~90 zoom the circle is gigantic so corner flaws in design don't matter,

Not that would understand it but...... Can you explain your math to me ....like I was 2?
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Apr 6, 2018 16:05:30   #
InfiniteISO wrote:
OK, I hope I never come across as snarky, but I'm sorry if I am.

Everyone seems to be getting hung up on the idea of a round sensor, that was thrown in as an afterthought.

But since you asked, picture this. When your FX lens is projecting an in-focus image on your current DSLR sensor, it is projecting an image that is 43 mm in diameter. This is regardless of whether it's an 800mm monster telephoto or a 11 mm wide angle. It is simple math. We know the image is round and we know it lights the corners of a rectangle that is 36 x 24mm, therefore the circle must be 43mm.

The bodies of the current cameras crops this image. That extra light is actually a problem, it has to be controlled so it doesn't bounce around inside the body. Your shutter only allows a rectangular portion of that circle to "expose" your sensor. Now imagine you redesign that body with a mirror-less sensor so it allows all of that image to hit and be captured. The minimum size and shape of that sensor would be a round array that was 43 mm in diameter. Make sense?

The bottom line is: If your sensor matched the circular image available from the lens when it is in focus, it would give you the most flexibility in creating a RECTANGULAR image. Perhaps I should have advocated the a 43 mm diameter sensor from the beginning, but I was trying to imagine a camera that would have an equal number of megapixels to an FX DSLR camera just for the sake of argument.

My much more serious proposal was for a camera with a 29mm square sensor that would take FX size lenses. I would buy it today. Call it a baby, medium format camera. I personally would shoot with it. That sensor could actually be made a tad larger since a 31.4 mm square is the largest size that can be inscribed in a that 43mm circle of FX image. I would also shoot with a square camera based on the DX family of lenses. I'm not going to figure out what that sensor size would be but it's fairly easy to compute.

There, does that add some clarity?
OK, I hope I never come across as snarky, but I'm ... (show quote)



Yes it does.....OK I see where your going. I'd buy the "baby medium" as well.
I not sure about the math being the same circle on all lenses ...I don't think that's true....but I don't know (it wasn't true with view camera lenses)
I would like to have this discussion with you over a few glasses of Scotch.....it could be interesting.

I do see you point .....though I doubt you ll ever see this camera.... you did explain it well
Cheers
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Apr 6, 2018 15:56:41   #
rkberta wrote:
The real question is why not let the final product (the photo) determine the crop? If one always outputs to "standard" paper or frame sizes....why not something else. Most of my film photography was with Hasselblad 6x6...sometimes full frame but often cropped to best show the subject. When shooting I visualized what the cropping would be. I still prefer square format if given choice but currently mostly shoot D810 Nikon. The original 35mm doesn't match standard paper or frame sizes so often needs cropping unless printed full frame on larger paper size anyway.
The real question is why not let the final product... (show quote)


Sure but for me I visualize the perspective first and choose the appropriate focal length and fill the frame.
By cropping later you change the focal length hence the perspective. My personal rule try not to crop out those pixels;-)
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Apr 6, 2018 14:39:42   #
InfiniteISO wrote:
Take any of your lenses and put them up to a bright light source and place a piece of paper where your sensor or film would be.





Sure lenses have a circular "projection" but that size is different for all the different lens designs out there....and then there is the zoom lens design.
Can you tell me again what your advocating for.... with respect to a round censor? Why do you want this?

The square format of old was desirable because it not only was a great format to compose but also it lent itself to cropping in respect to holding the camera in one direction.

I for one don't want to crop my digital sensor ever, if I don't have to. There is no advantage to using DX lens on FX format any more than using a lens on a view camera that didn't cover the film.
A bigger Circle of confusion was better for the flexibility and use of the view cameras corrections.

Can tell me again why you think a circular sensor is a good idea? How will it help your composing your photos?

Please know I just want to understand your point ...and really I don't mean to be sarky....and I have not read every post on this thread.

Please help me understand you....really
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Apr 6, 2018 11:20:24   #
I wouldn't mind the feature of "Rise" like my old view camera.
But that's the opposite of this thread. small sensor (which I don't want) and bigger circle of confusion in lenses
That will make lens bigger, heaver and even more expenses.
And there is those pesky Laws of Physics;-)
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Apr 6, 2018 11:15:05   #
bobmcculloch wrote:
Seems to me to reduce weight you have to sacrifice something, most of the weight seems to be in the lens so , slower lenses can be lighter, smaller sensors = smaller lenses for field of view, Personally I have APS-C, weight and expense makes Full Frame undesirable, I've yet to see any material weight reduction in an APS-C mirrorless and the expense is still there, BTW I require a viewfinder also.


I was once told by Schneider's tech department, that as soon as they repel the laws of Physics they will design the lens I was asking for
....so yea I know I'm a bit unrealistic. We have come so far and I do want the perfect camera.
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Apr 6, 2018 10:41:30   #
--
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Apr 6, 2018 10:35:40   #
I'd love a square format if it was not achieved by cropping.
I think round it silly and unnecessary

I love the current format's of today's cameras and the IQ is just fine for me.

I would hope camera manufactures spend there time and money on other things
.....like a simplified menus, my pet peeve or making cameras lighter and smaller
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Apr 1, 2018 18:26:03   #
I love any Holiday where its mandatory that you drink Four glasses of wine ;-)
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Apr 1, 2018 10:17:01   #
Thanks for posting "so we never forget" Happy Passover
....Who doesn't love Mandale Bread .....How about a Thread to share recipes?
Have we got a Brisket recipe.... Its better than Wolowitz's moms
Wheres the chocolate toffee Matzoh ;-)

Nice photos. Its a great Holiday!
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